I realize I have qualities of both, but while in some relationships (platonic) I have clear boundaries with others (Romantic) I have none, or unhealthy patterns, or "learned behaviors" that are deeply ingrained from childhood, from my "family of origin", from my relationship with my mother and father and the roles they played in my life while I was growing up, the emotional abandonment and manipulation by my mother and the "double bind" physical abandonment by my father (double bind because he said he loved me and were "partners" while leaving me outside of bars in the car every night until closing time while drinking)
I have done a lot of "work" over the years with these issues, and frankly thought they were behind me, I changed a great deal over the years in sobriety in facing these things, but learned I had some "underlying issues" that I hadn't so much "dealt with" as just "gone around" so that they didn't seem to be an issue any more as I had changed who I had relationships with, both romantically and in my friends and work environments, I just didn't know they were there any more until they were reactivated.
A few years ago I recently was thrown into contact on a daily basis with my family of origin, where I lived on the same property as them, worked with them, and had daily contact with them, and I moved away from my "recovery community" to do so, and I found it ended up affecting every area of my life, I learned I had built an "insulated community" around me, my girlfriend was in recovery, I started my own company and my employees were in recovery, all my friends were in recovery, so while I appeared healthy, and behaved healthy, it was based on being surrounded by healthy people and instantly cutting contact with those I percieved as unhealthy, now don't get me wrong, this process took me a decade, but what I learned when I moved back in with my family was those issues were still there, but "hidden" or "not activated", once I moved back ALL of this "stuff" was triggered, actually to such a degree (worse) then it had ever been. From this I learned (alcoholic and codependent) insanity was contagious, I got "sicker" mentally from this then I had ever been in my life
Looking back I realized I had turned to alcohol and risky behaviors (sexual and physical) to mask the damage from my upbringing, and by getting sober and working the steps I addressed many of the causes, and changed many of the behaviors by a form of "cognitive therapy" but I learned that I had simply swept much of it under the rug, and when it was "reactivated" by contact with my family, it was worse then ever, it was like having a relapse of epic proportions
Anyway the following Passages by Pia Mellody really spoke to me, I looked them up today, and they have been resonating in my head all day, Here is where I think I am going to start my work, I was talking to another member here, she is also looking into using Melody Beatty's 12 steps, so I am looking forward to taking this journey with all of you
-- Edited by LinBaba on Wednesday 2nd of March 2011 09:52:17 PM
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it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
Many of us routinely face the question the title presents. It is not unusual to have a client complain of loving another person who is treating them abusively, being sexual with others, and unaccountable for their actions. The partner in turn complains of feeling bored and predictably will engage in risky behaviors that defy common sense. For the past fifteen years, I have treated many such clients.
For the last twenty-one years, I have been employed by an inpatient treatment center called The Meadows in Wickenburg, Arizona. After seeing hundreds of clients and looking at patterns of behavior, family of origin relational trauma issues, and addiction problems, it became apparent that early relational trauma sets up dysfunctional adult relational issues. There are two inter-relating issues, one is in the relationship with self and the other is in the relationship with others. The relationship with self presents five primary problems that lead to adult intimacy issues:
First the client has trouble having a sense of self, spending much of his or her life living in reaction to the object of their affection rather than in action for the self. This is the reality issue; it causes the client to feel empty inside and causes the client to endlessly blame others for how he feels emotionally or for what he has done.
Second, the client does not experience inherent worth. He gauges his sense of value through a process of endless comparison to others, and is too dependent on others to establish either a sense of value or self. This interferes with his ability to maturely love others. He generally can hold another person in warm regard only when the other is behaving "properly," or when he has created a comfortable fantasy about the other person and uses denial to avoid looking at the other's disturbing behavior.
Third, the client has no personal boundary system with which to protect and contain himself during intimate exchange. This leads to abusive behavior on his part and involves control and manipulation, raging, ridiculing, lying and/or a high tolerance for this type of behavior in a partner.
The fourth problem involves poor self-care, leading to dependency and interdependency problems in a relationship.
The fifth problem deals with living in the extreme. This is usually exhibited by a lack of moderation in attitude and behavior, which leads to a sense of deadness and/or chaos in a relationship.
Childhood trauma
It is evident that problems with the "self" lead to intimacy issues. The next question concerns where these problems developed. It appears that childhood trauma sets up several core issues. For example, if a child is not maturely loved by his parents, he will develop self-esteem issues. If he is not protected and taught containment, he will develop boundary problems. If he is forced to do too much adapting, he will lose his sense of self and have trouble being real. If he is not taught to take care of his basic needs and wants, he will have difficulty doing this as an adult. And, if he is severely shamed into containing himself and not taught containment, he will have trouble establishing moderation in his adult life.
Both trauma and core issues drive addictions, be it addiction to substances, processes, or to other people. Trauma, core issues, and addictions create severe relational problems where sex, love, and relational matters all seem to become entwined. Knowing where to start is the first step in treatment.
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it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
Alcohol or drug addictions should be addressed first and foremost. The client must have the ability to think and feel without a mood altering substance. Subsequently, the primary behavioral addiction to be considered is love addiction. A Love Addict has been traumatized in childhood by being neglected or abandoned by either of his parents. The child who suffers from neglect or abandonment learns three toxic ideas from this trauma:
In a relationship he is worth less than his partner. This kind of trauma is extremely shaming and relationally he will assume a victim posture allowing his partner to be abusive. He will see the partner as a higher power and will literally worship them, giving him a feeling of helplessness, resulting in a lack of self-esteem. The Love Addict does not esteem himself in the relationship, therefore the partner will often assume a position of disrespect and relate out of duty, not love.
He needs a partner to take care of him. He believes that he cannot take care of himself and demonstrates poor self-care skills, therefore the partner will feel the Love Addict is a burden.
If he does not get close enough to the partner he will not survive. This client believes that he cannot leave a partner because if he did, he would die. Therefore, the client will exercise no personal boundaries resulting in the partner feeling suffocated and victimized.
This toxicity drives the obsessive/compulsive relational cycle of love addiction. The cycle starts with the Love Addict constructing a fantasy that the partner is a god or goddess, although denial is used to protect the fantasy. Eventually, an event occurs that destroys the fantasy and the love addict goes into withdrawal from the fantasy. The withdrawal is experienced as severe depression, rage, panic, and toxic shame. The Love Addict will then try to relieve the emotional withdrawal by self-medicating with food, drugs, sexual encounters, smoking, alcohol, or locating another person to become the object of addiction. If the partner returns expressing seductive qualities, the Love Addict will pass out of withdrawal and return to fantasy. As a result, the love-addicted cycle will begin all over again.
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it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
At the other end of the continuum is love avoidance, an obsessive/compulsive relational cycle that begins with the child's enmeshment with parents (meaning one or both of the parents has no boundaries with the child). The child becomes the support network and provides care for the parent's. This concept is best understood by examining the roles a child plays in a dysfunctional family system, such as the family counselor, mediator, mascot, scapegoat, or hero.
Oftentimes, the child may be a surrogate parent to younger siblings. In other situations, "Daddy's little girl" is a situation where the female child is more important to her father than her mother. The child feels superior to her mother and will later serve as her father's surrogate spouse. At the other end of the spectrum, "Mom's little man" is when the son is more important than the father. As a result, the son often feels superior to the father and becomes a surrogate spouse. In these described roles, the child feels very close to the parent, but is actually too close. He has to adapt too much to the needs of the parent and in that adaptation, loses a sense of self and spontaneity. As an adult he will feel easily bored and empty inside, which drives his need to use risk taking to create intensity.
Being enmeshed by a parent creates three toxic ideas in the Love Avoidant:
When in a relationship with a needy person the Love Avoidant is superior. He will assume a parental position, have all the power, and look down on his partner. This is a core self issue of poor self-esteem and in a relationship it will cause him to be controlling and disdainful of the partner.
It is the Love Avoidant's job to take care of needy people. This is how he knows to be relational. It becomes part of his value system and if he is not taking care of someone in need, he feels guilty. As a core self issue it is a dependency or self-care issue. It causes resentment of the partner, as the love avoidant feels oppressed by his perceived responsibility. He too enters relationships out of duty, not love.
If the Love Avoidant does not maintain enough distance in a relationship, he will be suffocated. As a result, he uses "walls" to create the distance he needs. As a core issue, this is a boundary problem.
These three toxic thoughts drive a compulsive relational cycle called "the cycle of love avoidance." The cycle starts with the Love Avoidant entering a relationship because the other person needs assistance. The prospective partner seems needy and the avoidant appears to enter the relationship to avoid guilt and because it makes him feel good about himself. However, the Love Avoidant doesn't actually enter a true relationship. He is hiding behind a "wall of seduction" that causes the prospective partner to feel special, but in reality the Avoidant is simply role-playing. The Avoidant is contemplating the relationship out of duty, not love. The result is resentment at having to work so hard to be in a relationship in which he really doesn't want to participate. He then uses the anger to justify his escape from the duty-bound relationship.
As self-medication, he seeks high intensity to relieve his boredom and make him feel wonderful. He starts risk-taking behavior such as sexually acting out, gambling with money or his life, drinking, drugging, or work addiction. However, following such behavior, he starts to feel guilty because he is not properly caring for his partner, so he returns out of guilt and restarts the entire avoidant cycle.
Humans tend to be relationally attracted to what is familiar. The Love Addict is attracted to people who are distant and relationally irresponsible, similar to his neglectful parent/s. The Love Avoidant is compelled to be relational with needy people who put him in a god-like position. It is not unusual to see these two types of people enter into relationships with one another, whereby they often stimulate each other's cycle.
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it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
The Love Addict enters the relationship masked in fantasy that is stimulated by the avoidant's "wall of seduction." He uses the fantasy to mask the Love Avoidant's distancing. The Love Avoidant uses the "wall of seduction" to make the Love Addict feel good and to keep himself safe from suffocation. Then as the Love Avoidant develops resentments, leaves and acts out to create intensity, the Love Addict uses denial to maintain his fantasy.
The resentment and distancing eventually break the Love Addict's denial and they enter into emotional withdrawal from the fantasy. Because he is so unhappy, the Love Avoidant starts to feel guilty and returns to the relationship with a wall of seduction that usually starts the two cycling again. This is not about love for either partner. It is a combination of addiction, toxic sexual behavior, and deep relational problems.
The case of Harry
One of the notable symptoms of love addiction is obsession with the partner. He is usually motivated to seek therapy in the midst of his withdrawal. He is very depressed, full of fear, sometimes enraged, and feeling quite worthless. He can't stop talking about his partner and all the terrible things his partner has done. The Love Addict will refuse to focus on himself and his own issues of self-care.
A case in point is Harry. He came in for therapy feeling suicidal. All he could talk about was how Susan had betrayed him by having a sexual affair with her boss, lying about it, and eventually leaving him for this married man. He talked extensively about how she was nasty and rejected him. I tried to talk to him about his own issues of self-care, but he refused to focus on himself even though he was having a flare up of chronic multiple sclerosis and was neglecting his treatment program.
Another symptom of the Love Addict is that he has an unrealistic idea (fantasy) about the character of his partner. For example, when Harry started dating Susan, she told him she had had many sexual partners, never stayed with one man for very long, and seemed to take pride in talking about how much money she was able to take from her previous partners. When I tried to talk to him about the obvious fact that she did not appear to be interested in a long-term relationship, he would reply with how charming and "loving" she had been with him on a few occasions. He could not see this behavior as being seductive. He saw it as evidence of her "love" for him and talked about how he could not envision a future without her. Although Harry was now a very successful doctor with a growing practice and a number of good friends, including women who wanted to date him, all he could talk about was his devotion to Susan.
An identifying feature for the heterosexual male Love Addict is a history of childhood abandonment or neglect by his mother. In the case of Harry, he reported that his mother left his father for another man when he was four, and that she only made contact with him once a year at Christmas. His father never remarried. Harry longed for his mother to call and invite him to spend time with her.
An additional feature of the Love Addict is when the partner returns and becomes seductive, they promptly stop therapy, reporting that everything is wonderful. The Love Addict usually is available for treatment only when he is in withdrawal. For example, after several months Susan broke up with her boss and returned to Harry. She told him that she had made a mistake and asked if she could move back into his apartment. Harry agreed to this and called to tell me everything was going to turn out fine and he did not need any more therapy.
Two months later Harry returned to therapy reporting that Susan had left after getting him to pay off her credit card bills. He was depressed again, but able to focus better on himself and realize his previous notions regarding Susan's character were unrealistic. He was able to see that his vision of the relationship was fantasy.
Harry's solutions
Harry's treatment started when he acknowledged the fantasy and began the grieving process. His grief stemmed from the dream that a woman would come into his life, be a replacement for his mother, as well as a good sexual partner. He started trauma work concerning his mother's abandonment. We worked together to change the toxic ideas he had learned from the experience with his mother; focused on learning how to embrace the concept of inherent worth; and then apply it to himself.
Harry also developed a comprehensive plan of self-care to help him feel more comfortable on his own. He was taught to develop a personal boundary system, which he practiced in his friendships. I had requested he not date or have sexual contact with any women until his boundary system and self-care issues were functioning. This took about six months. After all this work, when he did start dating, he was initially attracted to seductive women who looked down on him. It only took about three dates before he reported feeling toxic around this type of partner. He then was able to stop dating this particular type of woman.
Gradually, over the course of a year, he developed an attraction to women who treated him with more respect and did not use seduction to manipulate him.
The case of Jack
The Love Avoidant usually does not seek therapy. It is his partner who drags him in to the office complaining that he is distant, very critical of her, working too much, and possibly having an affair. If he does come into therapy on his own, it is because he needs addiction treatment for sex, drugs, or gambling.
In the case of Jack, who came into therapy for the treatment of sex addiction, it soon became apparent that he was a Love Avoidant. He complained that his wife used him as a meal ticket and was suffocating him with demands to be at home more often with the family. He reported that he only felt good when he was working out of town and having sex with women he picked up in bars. When he came home he initially felt guilty and would be nice to his wife, but the resentment once again built up inside him.
Jack possessed the outstanding features identifying the typical Love Avoidant Ñ the need to obtain distance from the family, the use of risky, intense experiences to make himself feel better, and resentment of having to be relational.
Jack's solutions
The first step in treating the Love Avoidant is to tackle the addiction issues creating the intensity, for Jack it was sex addiction. This was difficult for him because he didn't want to stop. He complained that if he stopped his compulsive sexual behavior, his life would become boring and miserable and that he deserved to reward himself for all the hard work he was doing for his wife. Over a six-month period, he eventually became sober from his sex addiction.
I then introduced the concept of avoidance to him, focusing on the issue of being relational out of duty, and needing to create intensity because he was so shut down from being enmeshed as a child. What he reported was that he had been a "mama's boy" and was hated by his father who competed with him for his mother's attention. His mother wanted him to become a corporate executive, have a high salary, and care for her in her elder years. He wanted to be a musician and teach music, but his mother insisted he major in business and become an executive. He agreed to do this but felt bored and unhappy, although he developed a talent for business, became successful, and had several attractive girlfriends.
He had met his wife in college and was sexual with her on their first date. She got pregnant and he felt duty bound to marry her. She quit college and got a job as a secretary. He resented being married and shortly after his first child was born, he began having casual affairs with other women. He said his wife seemed quite dependent, needing him to function more like a father than a husband. After three children she had become morbidly obese and he found her unattractive.
In treating the avoidance, we first focused on the trauma of his enmeshment with his mother. In trauma work he began to re-experience how suffocating his mother's behavior had been and how resentful he had felt as a child having to give up his music. He related the feeling of suffocation to the fear he had experienced as a child being more important to his mother than his father. He identified it as being given a job beyond his level of maturity. We then focused on his toxic ideas, such as being unable to say "no" to a needy woman. He also worked on developing boundaries and giving up using his "walls." He complained of feeling too vulnerable without his walls, but gradually he became comfortable with the intimacy, and learned to say no without feeling guilty. Jack also worked on relinquishing intensity through risky behaviors and learned how to have contained spontaneity as a way to feel alive and vital.
This process took approximately one year. Once he committed to doing the work, his recovery progressed rapidly. The problem with treating the Love Avoidant is that he has little motivation to change, but if he does get motivated, he changes rapidly.
Difficult work for both
The Love Addict is the opposite, they are motivated only in withdrawal, and recovery is somewhat more difficult. The Love Addict has to give up the fantasy and learn self-love and self-care, while the Love Avoidant has to give up the risk-seeking behavior and become more relationally vulnerable by the use of boundaries, not walls. It is difficult work for both of them.
Sadly, neither the Love Addict nor the Avoidant actually knows how to love, they must be taught. One confuses fantasy with love and objectifies the partner. The other is in a relationship out of duty, and often is allergic to the concept of love as he associates the word with being suffocated or oppressed. He uses sex to medicate and frequently sexually objectifies his partners. Both need to learn how to love and be appropriately vulnerable sexually, and hopefully we as counselors can provide them with a pathway.
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it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
I know I should be happy, but I feel a bit discouraged to learn that I have yet another problem, and it feels like a big effing problem. I took the suggestion, ordered the book Facing Love Addiction by Pia Mellody and I'm halfway through it. Was none too pleased to find myself identifying with love addiction. (... or that she suggests recovery period is 3-5 YEARS and to stay out of a relationship!)
This week I've been hitting more al-anon meetings than AA, didn't know how else to address the author's suggestion of working codependence. Not too thrilled because al-anon is not real strong in this area. Never heard of CODA, in fact, as it was discussed here, I thought, good gawd.
SO, I find it incredibly interesting that the book and this new board coincide at the same time. And I want to believe my Higher Power is involved, all could not be revealed at once, right? I am here to learn.
I want to thank you personally, LB, for your efforts here at MIP. I never would have purchased the book otherwise.
But, wouldn't you know it.... THREE matches from eHarmony in 1 week!!!! cripes
-- Edited by gladlee on Friday 4th of March 2011 12:06:47 PM
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"See the work. Do the work. Stay out of misery." -Maharishi
Hey there Lin, on one of your posts here, the one with jack and harry,it mentioned the love addict and the love avoidant. Are those the same thing as codependent and counterdependent? I been reading some articles from Robert Burney and it sounds to me they are similar. He says that the two attract each other, but some times we can be both of them. I think I see my self as both some times. this is new to me, at least on this level, and your are 100% right about not changing till the pain get bad enough. I really like your looking in the book to fix her and saw what you saw,( if your reading this for someone else, your definitely codependent ) that hits home big time.
-- Edited by billyjack on Thursday 3rd of March 2011 09:23:48 PM
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"Sometimes the lights are all shining on me - other times I can barely see - Lately its occurred to me - what a long strange trip its been." Robert Hunter
billyjack yes people do switch back and forth from codependent to counterdependent. But many are just counterdependents. I see these folks as havinq intimacy issues, whereas they can only qet down to a certain level and then they bail and push people away. This is very attractive to a codependent because it, in a lot of cases, reminds them of one of their parents or parental fiqures. Codependents are set up for conditional love, so workinq/performinq for love that they just can't qet is kind of the ultimate attraction. It feels like they are tryinq to have a relationship with someone who too qood for them, all the while rejectinq love from many others around them as not beinq qood enouqh. If I have low self esteem, low sense of self worth, and this person loves me unconditionally, there must be somethinq wronq with them. On the other hand, that person treats me like I'm disposable, because (I think) they know I'm damaqed qoods, but lets me hanq around in the hopes that someday I miqht win them over. I'm qoinq to try extra hard for that person's approval because I think they understand me and, after all they are a real prize, in my dysfunctional eyes.
When we qet off this merry qo round and learn to love an accept those around us that love us unconditionally, thinqs will chanqe. But first we must learn to love, accept, and take care of ourselves physically, emotionally, and spiritually, and financially, and as they say "qet a life". I found that the only way for me to do that was to be sinqle for a couple of years and learn to love, nurture, and take care of myself. The neediness went away, and I became healthier. The healthier I qot, the healthier those that I was attracted to, and were attracted to me, qot. I was then able to develop healthy relationships from a position of strenqth rather than weakness. Instead of tryinq to fill in the biq empty whole in my life, that person had to earn a rather small spot in my full life.
Gladlee, I feel the same way. Just thought I would let you know, your not alone. Like you; I do believe this is our HP working in our lifes in our quest for Spiritual Growth.
Thank you so much for posting this. This is/was exactly the relationship of my husband and me. Wow. So much interesting and life changing info. Again, thanks for sharing.
"Sometimes the lights are all shining on me - other times I can barely see - Lately its occurred to me - what a long strange trip its been." Robert Hunter
Thanks for posting this, Linbaba. It wasn't easy reading for me, and I found myself putting my head in my hands and sucking air through my teeth as it really hit home. I have a lot of work to do on me. That's a lot to swallow on a Tuesday afternoon, but I'm very grateful to have read this thread.
