That's really interesting... I see my parents in this article - and they have been stuck like this their whole lives. They fit this amazingly. I see my learned behaviors and I raise them 2 bits every so often... other times... I have the trump card. Coming here helps me stack the deck.

Robert Barney is a great guy and generously shares his insightful journey into recovery.

I LOVE reading his book, there's a lot to learn from this amazing and courageous man.

What is truly remarkable is how COMMON and predictable the reactions described are, I identify with All of them, and puts me into the category of " textbook" case.

Love this. Thank you for sharing :)

Hello Leandra,

I have been both codependent and counter-dependent in a relationship.  When I was at my worst I could swing from one to another in the same day.  As a child I was not taught to learn from my mistakes.  I was taught that mistakes were weakness.  I had to learn through recovery that mistakes are ok, I am human, and to pay attention to them and learn the lessons they have to offer.  If I stay in the "I am not supposed to make mistakes" mode, I hide my mistakes because they are completely impossible not to make.  When I am hiding I am keeping secrets.  When I am keeping secrets I am lying.  When I am keeping secrets and lying I am CREATING shame and guilt. 

I am learning that communication when the push/pull starts is key.  So often I lived in my head with my fears of what the other person was thinking.  This would influence my behavior which was chase after or withdraw.  I would start doing this before I even had the facts.  The other person's behavior might not have anything to do with me, but I was consumed by fear that they were unhappy with me and they were going to leave.  The flip side is I was feeling overwhelmed and saturated and couldn't ask for some space to breathe for fear they were going to be unhappy with me or going to leave.  Codependent or Counter-dependent - funny they have the same factors.  Fear of someone unhappy or someone leaving.

Now I find that presenting how I feel to them, perhaps "I am feeling some distance from you and it is making me afraid"  or "I need some 'me' time" gives them the opportunity to share with me how they are feeling and why.  It may have nothing to do with me but open up communications about what is happening with them.  It allows us to put the problem on the table and then and only then a solution can also be put on the table.  Lack of communication was probably my #1 downfall in all of my relationships. 

Communication takes practice.  I remember CLEARLY the first time after I got into recovery and I said "No" to someone about something I would normally just caved about.  It was DIFFICULT (knot in the stomach) but I was also really amazed at how there was not the big blow up I expected.  They didn't hate me.  They didn't run away.  They didn't berate me.  They said "Oh, ok."  It was so bad for me, one time I was in a store and there were a pair of jeans on the sale rack.  I took them to the counter and they charged me $80.00 - full price.  I let them.  I didn't say anything out of fear.  At the time this was not something I could afford.  That's how bad it was.

I found after I kept practicing that when I started speaking my mind - as long as I do it with kindness and compassion nobody says anything.  Nothing.  In fact, you know what they do?  They treat me with more respect than they ever have. 

Here's a tip I figured out on my own and have never read.

I start with just one or two sentences and then stop talking.  Before recovery if I had a negative feeling (if it finally got so bad I had to say something) I would stress so bad I would make myself sick and then I would sit and spit the entire thing out like birthing a baby.  I would start with "YOU did xyz" and then not stop until I was breathless and they were pissed.

Now, if it is negative - first I try to remove the fear before I speak.  Second, I say my one or two sentences like "I am feeling some distance from you and it is making me afraid".  Then I stop talking and listen.  I let them process it.  I am leaving room for an actual conversation and not putting them on the defensive from my first word.  I have read a lot about speaking with "I" messages, but the concept of stop talking I had to learn on my own.

Oh, and another tip (ok, on a roll ... sorry).  But when I very first started I actually said things like "I am trying to learn how to communicate my feelings, I am very bad about it.  I am very scared about having this conversation."  That immediately, every single time, diffused the other person and made them receptive to what I was about to say and GENTLE WITH ME.

It's like the fear of anything new, it is uncomfortable until you get good at it, then it is not uncomfortable anymore.

The improvement to my emotional well-being was drastic. 

Willing

-- Edited by willing on Tuesday 25th of June 2013 07:02:41 PM

Thank you for sharing your experiences Leandra! I feel I can relate with you on soooo many levels, especially the mother issue.

I was just thinking last night if all of this comes down to how my mother has always raised me. It's hard for me to say this, because my mother is my hero in so many ways and I know if she found out that I was even thinking this she would be mad at me.

I grew up in a household where my mother was physically abused by my father and I was the one left to take care of my brother and sister, emotionally, while this was taking place. I love my mother dearly, but I find when she comes to me with issues I can't seem to bring myself to want to help her or even care. I feel this makes me a terrible person.

My mother was adopted and grew up in a household where her mother would mistreat her and only cared about the men she was dating at the time. When my mother had me at sixteen she finally left and started her own life. She met my father, not biological, had my brother and that's when her life seemed to spiral out of control. For the next ten or so years she would do on this roller coaster ride with my father where they would split, but then get back together. My sister was born through all of this.

My life is a long story, but I struggle to understand why I feel this way about my mother. My mother has always taught me to not worry about having a man and that I should learn how to deal with stressful situations. I often get the "how old are you" question when I ask for advice and it makes me feel ****ty. I know my mother means well, but sometimes I feel she puts too much pressure on me to be like her. She has been through A LOT, but I hate feeling as though I should have learned from her mistakes.

I don't want to disappoint her, but at the same time I feel I'm not living my own life by doing this. I don't want it to come across as though I'm bashing my mother, because I know I've had my own share of faults but does any of this make any sense?

I live with my mother right now as a way to help with expenses, I'm currently in school, and I'm not sure how to mend our relationship. We get along, but I feel we're not past certain situations from the past. My mother is very stubborn and refuses to admit any faults and whenever we get into a fight I have to be the one to apologize first otherwise she'll never talk to me again. Arg, I guess I'm just venting, but I don't know what to do. How to you move forward in life when that someone is your mother?

Thank you for sharing. Yea, I consider my mother to be my best friend but there are definitely those times when I just want to hurt her, lol. We have good moments its not always bad, I just wish she would grow up sometimes. I want to be able to have a good relationship with my mother, so I try and fix the things I believe I'm doing wrong to better our relationship. I try and take it one day at a time and that seems to help out. Thanks for letting me vent, definitely needed to!

I like to tell my mom a lot that if we were a married couple I would have divorced her along time ago, lol. I swear it feels like I'm in a marriage with her, lol.

Oh geez, I feel like quitting. I give up...I think I'm making progress and as soon as a male friend goes out of town (with his wife I might add) to check on his sick father, I fall all apart. I'm terrified of having no one to call if I need help or get scared. I'm terrified of being alone and I don't know why. Why can't I figure this out???? Why am I always so afraid of everything???? There're so many other things I could be doing with my time besides sitting in a chair in a panic. So much for working the steps. I've flopped at the first crisis. Sometimes I feel like going out and grabbing the first homeless man I see and move him in just so I'm not alone. Being alone is bad. Terrible things happened to me when I was alone. When I was alone, my dad would come looking for me. Oh God, the humiliation and cringing, embarrassment and terror because he could be so violent that i wasn't allowed to say no. But that was then...why does this still happen??

i All,

the way I understand the mother thing is thus: When our needs were neglected and therefore we were abused as infants, we had to quickly learn to adapt in order to survive. (this is when the false self is born and the split off takes place) The best way to survive was for us to learn to predict what the mood of our caretakers was going to be in order to not be further punished. After a while we became our parents caretakers because we understood that the more we behaved in a way that pleased them the less likely they would: abandon us, beat us, shout at us, leave us alone.

Over time our mothers, whom are in relation to our codependency, counter-dependent loved and got used to the idea of having little servants they could boss around and control emotionally.

Pleasing and rescuing our mother (or other caretaker) is how we became codependent.
We act as grown ups as if the crisis never ended, because we pick (inner child) partners that are cut out of the same cloth as our abusive caretakers.
That is all we know about love!! That is the reason why a really loving, whole person would not be attractive to us, they don't know how to dance the come here go away steps of fear of intimacy.

their parents mirrored them and supported their needs, without the "drama" they are simply too boring for us. Right Ashley?

Thank you, Miao. This sounds exactly like the relationship I have with my mother.

We were doing alright for about a week and now were in the no talking stage, again. We got into it the other night, because whenever she takes a nap during the day she wakes up in a hateful mood. I told her I was tired of her acting this way and all types of stuff was brought up. I won't type out everything that was said, because you would have to know our history to understand what is truly going on between the two of us.

The point is that we ended the fight saying that we would just start being roommates and buying our own food and necessities. I want to have a good relationship with my mother, but how can I do that with some one who acts like a child. Whenever we do get into a fight she won't apologize first I have to be the one to do that and unless I do she can go weeks without talking to me. Oh, and I should mention that if I buy her something she might start talking to me again. She acts like I owe her something, like I'm suppose to revolve my life around her. I love my mother and I know I have some faults in this relationship, as well, and I would be very inclined to listen to what I need to improve on within our relationship but only when she can admit that she has faults, as well. She believes she has no faults, that she is always right, and refuses to listen to anyone else when it comes to her life, because she is so stubborn. This woman is driving me insane and I feel if we keep going on like this I'm going to end up cutting her from my life. Looking back, I see where I learned this behavior from her, because in my romantic relationships I was very controlling and expected things from men. I don't want to be like that anymore and I don't want to be like her.

I really don't know what to do with our relationship. I would be totally up for therapy, but I know as stubborn as she is she won't do it. I refuse to go apologize first, because I'm tired of playing by her rules. For now, I'm happy with the whole roommate idea. I know this sounds bad, but I feel no remorse or sadness about our relationship coming down to this. I'm just happy I don't have to deal with her crap right now.

Thank you Leandra for that. My mother and I had some communication today, though it wasn't about our relationship it was the first word we spoke to each other in several days. I really want my mother to be apart of my life, but I hate always being the one to come to her first. I know I shouldn't look at it that way and just be an adult about it, but I feel were not getting any where when I keep giving in to her childish games. I do plan on approaching her in the near future, when I feel she is ready, and bringing up getting our relationship back on track. I really want this time around to be different and I want us to really discuss how we can improve this relationship. I hope, if she's willing, to possibly go to therapy with her. I already see a therapist, but I think both of us going together to improve our relationship would be a huge step. Thank you for giving me your view point as a mother. I'm not a mother myself, but I can only imagine the pain it brings to mothers to see their children grow up and leave the nest. I know my mother cares for me and only wants the best, I just want her to realize she can't control everything I do. I want her to know I'll always be her baby, but I have to live my own life now and make my own mistakes. Wish me luck on my future conversation with her.

Have you tried contacting your sons? I'm really sorry to hear that they cut you off. I really do appreciate you sharing your experience with me, it helped a lot.

The 'dance' as described, is every relationship that I have had in my life. Not just love relationships but every friendship, sponsor, work, etc.... Fear of abandonment alternating with fear of being swallowed up by anyone in my life. Even my relationship with the 12 step program itself, has been influenced by this dance.
NOW, 1 week after surgery, I am unable to drive for 6 weeks. MY older sister came to help for 5 days, and I could not wait for her to leave. I felt so ungrateful, yet so smothered. I love her to pieces yet her I am with these conflicted feelings. Again
Reading about why .....I need to know how to break this terrible dance of the red shoes. I feel so alone and isolate because I feel shame at being in program for years and still being so dysfunctional. I have had meg time alone since surgery and with no distractions, it is clear to see myself. I am so glad to have found this site.