I just had an incredibly interesting conversation about this tonight, and I'd thought I would try to get my thoughts down while they were still fresh.

I maintained that when I was a "people pleaser" it was basically me manipulating other peoples responses, it was me lying by evasion, prevarication or not stating my needs, in short, my inability to say No in order to get a desired response from someone else, so I would call it "a fear based lie" rather then "people pleasing" because, for me, that seemed more accurate, she stated in her case it was far deeper, quite different, and wasn't manipulation, but a response to manipulation (and abuse-from childhood, that was my "take"), it was decidely fear based, but not manipulation per se, but a failure to enforce boundaries, and a fear of seeing people angry or unhappy and the need to keep them from getting angry or unhappy, in the course of the conversation we discovered both views were right to a certain degree, and there was a great deal of "overlap" betwen one or the other, much of people pleasing was manipulation, and much manipualtion could be percieved as people pleasing, but there was a point when the "grey area ended" as it were

People pleasing<--- - - both - - ----->manipulation

Some of the topics we discussed, and I'd like to develop further are:

What is a people pleaser:

A people pleaser, by definition, is a person who commits themselves to boosting the well-being of other people, even when doing comes at an emotional, physical, or economic expense. Certainly, responding to others and helping them in their time of need is a normal social function. However, the people pleasing personality invest themselves deeply in gaining approval from others to such a degree that their own needs and wants are set aside. They find it virtually impossible to deny any request, even when doing so causes chaos in their own lives or best-laid plans.

People Pleaser/Love Addict

People Pleasing is a powerful web of childhood experiences, beliefs, and painful feelings that result in this meta-strategy to gain love, secure belonging, a safe home base.

Based on this decision, belief, experience and perception of life that one's caretakers are not going to provide unconditional love, a child devises people pleasing strategies to earn love.  These earning love strategies might include: perfectionism, doing what is right, always being good, never giving offense, not expressing anger, working hard, and seeking measurable achievement including Type A behaviour pattern associated with heart attack.

Taken to extremes the child, and later the adult, becomes competitive for love and begins to put down rivals for love which can solidify into the ugly habit of religious or non-religious self-righteousness. Do you know anyone who counters any good report about yourself or your children with an example from his or her life or family?  Annoying, isn't it?  That is competitive People Pleasing.

Now something I did notice however, is there seem to be two types, (probably more but I am thinking of two) of people pleasers, one is the type we are all familiar with, the super busy "soccer mom" who is involved with the PTA, Bake sales, who sacrifices her life for everyone else, is very popular, has dinner parties, is driving her children to soccer games etc and another type, who I have dated a more then one of, who is actually a very solitary person, my first "great love" was this type, she would announce in a grandiose voice she was a "people pleaser" and I would think to myself "who are you pleasing?" because it didn't appear she did anything for anyone but herself, of course I never said anything because I was terrified of her, she was the epitome of the "powerful successful woman" which meant she was capable of kicking my ass to a pulp emotionally if I crossed her (hmm, I never realized I did that walking on eggshells thing in relationships...hmmm)

Anyway, what I have since learned was she was incapable of saying no so she protected herself by a complex set of walls and emotionally isolating herself from others in order to avoid saying no...interestingly enough, in the subsequent years since we broke up, she took up with a married man with kids, and became a "Type A extrovert" people pleaser, she even coaches the high school softball team now...so maybe the two types aren't that different

Anyway, I think my experiences with her colored my perceptions of people pleasing, she was incredibly selfish, so I equated "people pleasing" with "the emotional manipulation of others to get her needs met" which is what she did, on a side note, I got sober while with her, and she eventually started attending CODA meetings, she'd tell me "Coda is the Program for people who love too much" and I'd think to myself "CODA is the program for people who live with people they hate and torture more like" based on:

People Pleasing Passive aggressive cycle of retribution

People pleasers focus so much energy toward meeting the needs of others that they lose touch with their own lives. These individuals are often trapped by a disorienting feeling of being out of control in their own lives, which in turn lead to lashing out. They find themselves chanting over and over in their heads, "I must please others, please others, please others," and then comes the emotional explosion.

In Another thread I wondered how I could end up dating women who "hated" me, or disliked me intensely anyway, I wondered how this was possible...like why didn't they just leave me? Why did they lie about it?

Well I dated people pleasers...hmmm....people pleasers date self centered people....sigh......well enough of me talking about me, what do you guys think of me?

...

sigh.....

Anyway, One thing I learned tonight is there are certain aspects of people pleasing I am not going to understand, not being a mother, or a woman, I didn't get the same messages from my childhood, I looked it up and found this:

Girls Suffer Most from People Pleasing

Girls are far more likely to suppress their needs, desires, and opinions than boys. Societal norms, perpetuated by well-intentioned parents and teachers, play a huge role. Research shows female students receive less praise for the intellectual quality of their ideas, learn to value tidiness over innovation, and are applauded for being nice and accommodating. According to Dr. Kevin Leman in his book Women Who Try Too Hard: Breaking the Pleaser Habits, "It's a way of life for many - if not most - women who live in a culture that subtly and not so subtly trains them to be the ones who keep everyone happy."

It becomes a self-perpetuating cycle, whereby girls try to please others, assuming the acceptance of others will make them feel better. Unfortunately, people-pleasing behaviors often leave girls feeling dependent, inadequate, and powerless.

Why the Obsession to Please?

Many factors motivate girls to please, including:

Upbringing. Girls are trained to be pleasers by family, friends, school, society, or their culture. Many pleasers were raised by parents who disregarded their thoughts and needs. In extreme cases, pleasers had neglectful or abusive childhood experiences, which taught them their feelings weren't important. When parents or teachers celebrate a child for being compliant and obedient, the pleasing behaviors are reinforced.

Acceptance. Sometimes parents offer love, attention, or caring only when a child is compliant, sending the message that their value comes from their ability to please others. The lesson is clear: "You are only lovable if you do what I say." Thus, attempts to please others as an adult stem from a fear of rejection or an attempt to avoid judgment.

Conflict Avoidance. People pleasers would do anything to avoid conflict. Often, they learned as children that complying with the wishes of others helps to dodge anger and controversy. As pleasers grow older, they learn the harsh lesson that adult life is full criticism and conflict that must be managed and addressed rather than avoided.

Fear of Abandonment. For some people, the people-pleaser pattern stems from a fear of being alone or abandoned. If a child perceives that her parent left her or rejected her when she wasn't complying with everything they wanted, she might try to please them at all costs.

Low Self-Esteem. Pleasers believe they are only valuable if people like them. Those with low self-esteem don't believe they deserve to get what they want or to be heard. Without the affirmations and acceptance of people around them, they feel unimportant or worthless.

Something else I was thinking of was the difference between:

other centric (acutely aware of others feelings)(people pleasing) vs self centric (self centered fear based manipulation of others, such as lying to them)(manipulation)

I seem to spend some time in both camps of self and other centric, at worst I bounce between them in a blink of an eye, at best I am aware of both in a healthy manner, but one of the things I learned about myself was I can even use "honesty" and "Integrity" as tools for manipulation completely unknowingly, or a decent display of these characteristics, so when I learned that about myself, I learned that manipulating others wasn't always a devious, planned out with knowing, event, I only learned about it because I had a sponsor who used to ask me all the time "what are your motives", and he'd ask me repeatedly, so I learned I had an agenda so hidden I didn't even know I had one...like...a lot, so it made it easier to accept my manipualtion of others as not an evil thing, as much as something I just needed to start watching for, because my magical fun mind manipulated me just as much as I manipulated anyone else, one way was by judging myself by my intentions rather then my actions...once I started looking at the results of my actions rather then my intentions it started making better sense

Like I learned a lot of this stuff wasn't planned evil, but harmful "learned behaviors" from dysfunctional childhoods, and I wasn't responsible for my childhood, but I was responsible for changing my actions, and the only evil was perpetuating it after I learned about it and knew better

Manipulation

manipulation is characterized by deceitfulness, deviousness, and indirectness of communication. (passive aggressive behaviors)

Some people, however, are less conscious of their manipulative behaviors. They usually act out of fear, insecurity, or some intense emotional dysfunction to get what they want out of people. Although they may not fully appreciate or become aware of the negative impact of their manipulative acts, the result is similar to the one who manipulates consciously and deliberately.

co-dependent (manipulation of others) vs emotionally dependent (fear based dependent)

Looking back through my life I realize I was either the Co-dependent, or I was emotionally dependent in a relationship with a Co-dependent,  the "dependent" I have repeated a few times, where I depend on others for security, emotional or financial, this is why I tolerate intolerable behavior in many cases, this includes bosses and relationships, now in many cases I have great boundaries and am healthy, but in others I inexplicably lose my boundaries, thus my "self care", I am looking forward to trying to find the patterns in the relationships I allow this, nay invite this into my life, being a firm believer in the dictum, there are no victims, only volunteers, why and when do I volunteer?

I found my answer to how and why about their behavior, next I want to address how and what I can do differently, Do I need higher self esteem, better self reliance? better boundaries, a better sense of self worth?

One thing I learned from a counselor was people with low self esteem work longer hours, work harder, apply themselves better then those with good self esteem in order to compensate, like above and beyond what is healthy, I was bragging about how good I was at my job when she brought me up short, with this piece of information, I wonder if that is true with codependency and relationships? like we try harder to make up for low self esteem.



-- Edited by LinBaba on Tuesday 8th of March 2011 03:51:36 AM