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Emotional Abuse
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I was reading/participating in a discussion about "giving advice" over on the Al-anon forum and looking up some of the things got my brain kind of going...

I was always pretty good at spotting emotional abuse in others, I have quite a few websites saved about it and can spot it pretty fast in others and know exactly what website to go to take their inventory

I went through a pretty nasty break-up a few years ago and my ex called me "abusive", well emotionally abusive and I was REALLY hurt, I was like SHE was the "abusive one", "she started it, yeah I said some ugly things, but she said them first!!!" and I justified my actions that way, or blamed it on "heat of the moment", I mean the two of us really didn't have that whole "restraint of pen and tongue" thing down and the some of the things we said to each other were...horrific...I mean really really awful...but somehow since we were doing it to each other, I never quite had to take full responsibility for it, although I she did, in my mind I mean, I looked up "emotional abuse" web sites and delighted in showing them to her to show how she hurt me and the behaviors she was displaying, all the while minimizing what I said and did to myself, while recognizing what I said was horrible, awful and hurtful, she shared some of the responsibility for "making me" so angry, now admittedly I saw that all abusers used that excuse, but it was different since -she- was the abuser

right?? right??????

and she was "projecting by calling ME the abuser, since she so clearly started it and no one else had ever called me an abuser, (I know because I called all my exes after we broke up and asked them, they all said, well no, you couldn't keep it in your pants when you were drinking, and you were a frickin train wreck when you were drinking, but all in all you were always a nice guy, too nice actually, that's why you got in so much trouble, you were like peter pan with a penis

I had two "realities" happening at the same time, and I couldn't quite reconcile them, yes my behavior had been awful and should NEVER happen, but it was "her fault" so today while looking at the alanon site I came across many things researching the steps I thought were pertinant to this

"We also clutch at another wonderful excuse for avoiding an inventory. Our present anxieties and trouble, we cry, are caused by the behavior of other people-people who really need a moral inventory. We firmly believe that if only they'd treat us better, we'd be all right. Therefore we think our indignation is justified and reasonable-that our resentments are the "right kind." We aren't the guilty one. They are!" , To see how erratic emotions victimized us often took a long time. We could perceive them quickly in others, but only slowly in ourselves. The moment we ponder a twisted or broken relationship with another person, our emotions go on the defensive. To escape looking at the wrongs we have done another, we resentfully focus on the wrong he has done us. This is especially true if he has, in fact, behaved badly at all. Triumphantly we seize upon his misbehavior as the perfect excuse for minimizing or forgetting our own.

Right here we need to fetch ourselves up sharply. It doesn't make much sense when a real tosspot calls a kettle black. Let's remember that we are not the only ones bedeviled by sick emotions. Moreover, it is usually a fact that our behavior has aggravated the defects of others. We've repeatedly strained the patience of our best friends to a snapping point, and have brought out the very worst in those who didn't think much of us to begin with. In many instances we are really dealing with fellow sufferers, people whose woes we have increased.

Oh SNAP!!!

Damn that Bill Wilson...OK, well that is one rug pulled out from under me...well, I'll think it about it later, it obviously doesn't apply to ME.......so anyway, I was in "recovery" when we met, and we just couldn't seem to make things work, well make HER work I mean, she was obviously messed up, you NEED to go to therapy I said, you NEED to do this, and think this, and I am smarter then you (hence better then you) and I know more about this stuff then you, I'd take her inventory mercilessly and then blow a gasket when she took mine...ESPECIALLY after she started recovery, damned newcomers I'd say, nothing more dangerous then a little knowledge...I'd take her inventory some more...and it wasn't working...she just seemed to get worse and worse, the more I pointed out her faults to her, the worse she seemed to get...

I was working a good program..right? I mean I rewrote the steps a bit, but it was the steps right?


1. We admitted we were powerless over nothing and no one, that we would manage our lives perfectly and her's too.

2. Came to believe there was no power greater than ourselves and the rest of the world was insane, not too smart and needed our help, especially her.

3. Made a decision to have her turn her will and their lives over to our care

4 Made a searching moral and immoral inventory of her.

5. Admitted to the whole world the exact nature of her wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to make her straighten up and fly right.

7. Demanded she either shape up or ship out.

8 Made a list of all harms done by her and became willing to go to any length to get even with her

9. Got direct revenge on her whenever possible, except when to do so would cost me at the very least a jail sentence.

10. Continued to take her inventory, and when she was wrong promptly and repeatedly told her about it and made her admit it.

11. Sought through prayer and medication, and a return to drinking, complaining and nagging to improve my relationship with her since I knew best, asking only that she knuckle under and just f***ing do it my way already.

12. Having had a complete physical, emotional and spiritual breakdown as a result of these steps, promptly got in another relationship, and tried to get sympathy and pity in all of my affairs.

For some reason it didn't work and the relationship ended a dismal failure....all that -help- and great knowledge I had learned just. wasn't. working. when I tried to make her do it I mean....

when we broke up she was LIVID, I mean "Hell hath no Fury" women ran from her when she walked into a room, she had a thing or two to say about me and she said them, she was PISSED

but still....emotional abuser? That was pretty strong language...I was -pushed- into that behavior...it wasn't my fault....

so what DO emotional abusers look like anyway?

I was a member of another Al-anon site some years back quite a bit larger then this one and we'd get quite a few victims of domestic violence coming in, and one of the moderators actually worked at a DV shelter, we'd get pretty excited and the site would go into "crisis mode" with many of the members including myself going into the "you should" mode and finally he posted this as some tips when dealing with a victim of domestic violence, it REALLY brought me up short and made me take a good hard look at myself, when I was "you shoulding" a victim of Domestic Violence I was, in a way behaving EXACTLY like her domestic abuser, I was telling her what to do and what to think
This gave me food for thought
The following are some tips from the book by Lundy Bancroft called Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men. There's a section devoted to "Dealing with your own frustrations" and "What if She Doesn't Believe She is Being Abused?" that are also very helpful. Personally, I recommend buying or borrowing the book from the library. It's an eye-opening read. On to the book......

If you would like to make a significant difference in the life of an abused woman you care about, keep the following principle fresh in your mind..."Your goal is to be the complete opposite of what the abuser is".

The Abuser: Pressures her severely

So You Should: Be patient. Remember that it takes time for an abused woman to sort out her confusion and figure out how to handle her situation. It is not helpful for her to try to follow 'your' timetable for when she should stand up to her partner, leave him, call the police, or whatever step you want her to take. You need to respect her judgement regarding when she is ready to take action - something the abuser never does.

The Abuser: Talks down to her

So you Should: Address her as an equal. Avoid all traces of condescension or superior knowledge in your voice. This caution applies just as much or more to professionals. If you speak to an abused woman as if you are smarter or wiser than she is, or as if she is going through something that could never happen to you, then you inadvertently confirm exactly what the abuser has been telling her, which is that she is beneath him. Remember, your actions speak louder than your words.

The Abuser: Thinks he knows what is good for her better than she does

So You Should: Treat her as the expert on her own life. Don't assume that you know what she needs to do. I have sometimes given abused women suggestions that I thought were exactly right but turned out to be terrible for that particular situation. Ask her what she thinks might work and, without pressuring her, offer suggestions, respecting her explanations for why certain courses of action would not be helpful. Don't tell her what to do.

The Abuser: Dominates conversations

So You Should: Listen more and talk less. The temptation may be great to convince her what a 'jerk' he is, to analyze his motives, to give speeches covering entire chapters of this book. But talking too much inadvertently communicates to her that your thoughts are more important than hers, which is exactly how the abuser treats her. If you want her to value her own feelings and opinions, then you have to show her that you value them.

The Abuser: Believes he has the right to control her life

So You Should: Respect her right to self-determination. She is entitled to make decisions that are not exactly what you would choose, including the decision to stay with her abusive partner or to return to him after a separation. You can't convince a woman that her life belongs to her if you are simultaneously acting like it belongs to you. Stay by her even when she makes choices that you don't like.

The Abuser: Thinks for her

So You Should: Think with her. Don't assume the role of teacher or rescuer. Instead, join forces with her as a respectful and equal team member.

Notice that being the opposite of the abuser does not simply mean saying the opposite of what he says. If he beseeches her with, "Don't leave me, don't leave me," and you stand on the other side badgering her with, "Leave him, leave him," she will feel that you're much like him; you are both pressuring her to accept your judgement of what she should do. Neither of you is asking the empowering question, "What do you want to do?"
When I read that I threw up in my mouth a little bit
The Abuser: Was me
I did ALL of that
Pressures her severely
Talks down to her
Thinks he knows what is good for her better than she does
Dominates conversations

Believes he has the right to control her life (her thinking, saying I knew what was -best- for her, etc)

Thinks for her
Dammit Dammit, OK how do I get out of this one.....ruh roh, back to what Bill said in step 8
Our present anxieties and trouble, we cry, are caused by the behavior of other people-people who really need a moral inventory. We firmly believe that if only they'd treat us better, we'd be all right. Therefore we think our indignation is justified and reasonable-that our resentments are the "right kind." We aren't the guilty one. They are!" , To see how erratic emotions victimized us often took a long time. We could perceive them quickly in others, but only slowly in ourselves. The moment we ponder a twisted or broken relationship with another person, our emotions go on the defensive. To escape looking at the wrongs we have done another, we resentfully focus on the wrong he has done us. This is especially true if he has, in fact, behaved badly at all. Triumphantly we seize upon his misbehavior as the perfect excuse for minimizing or forgetting our own.

Right here we need to fetch ourselves up sharply. It doesn't make much sense when a real tosspot calls a kettle black. Let's remember that we are not the only ones bedeviled by sick emotions. Moreover, it is usually a fact that our behavior has aggravated the defects of others. We've repeatedly strained the patience of our best friends to a snapping point, and have brought out the very worst in those who didn't think much of us to begin with. In many instances we are really dealing with fellow sufferers, people whose woes we have increased.
   
I have already made what amends I could about this, although I think more are in order, a clear statement of wrongs done will be forthcoming, as well as a "living amends"...I never want to be that person again...I don't know HOW I got there, and I would like to say "but but...that's NOT me, but evidently it is...it's what I look like in that particular set of circumstances, and it's why I came to Al-anon and Coda, I didn't like who I had become, I wasn't raised that way, and I didn't learn how to be that way in AA, from my parents, ....I was raised to be better then that
so from here on out, I will be...I have been making amends the last few years, and made remarkable strides, my bottom was pretty ugly, but that one had been a stumbling block, if she was in front of me right this moment I would hug her and tell her NO ONE EVER deserves to be treated like that EVER, and that she is a child of God and deserves only the best of what the world has to offer, that regardless of what happened between us what I did was WRONG
The buck stops here
now solve some trust issues and abandonmet issues, and get off my ass and make some more money and have some more fun before I get so fat I can't see my toes, and I'll be right as rain...and maybe not drink so much coffe so I don't talk so F'ing much....



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Just a thought.... How do you stop the emotional abuse of yourself?! I am having a hard time at the moment trying to change my behaviour around emotionally abusing myself. I have been observing myself and listening to the things I say to myself and it's really upsetting. Over the past few weeks I've become aware of how I spend my days punishing myself in one form or another. My internal dialogue pretty much revolves around me telling me how **** I am, and that I am unlovable and worthless, it then goes on to give me "proof" of this by creating "fantasies" around people's behaviour eg, they're doing that because you're unlovable, etc. This way of thinking has been rife throughout my relationship with my partner, and my ego seems to have no problem at all finding proof of my shortcomings and then hitting me about the head with them. I hand it over, ask for this defect to be removed, and as soon as i have a sense of calm, my ego picks it up and starts all over again. I actually think myself into panic attacks! I want to feel good about myself and be able to see my worth but am having a really hard time being able to do that. My ego is really going for it with not wanting to give up the self loathing and self-hatred.
Freya

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Freya



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How do I stop the emotional abuse of myself?

 

Not in any one way really, I haven't found any -one- exercise that works, it's like everything together does it, steps, sponsors, sponsees, doing things for others without expecting anything in return, what's the saying, "When I get busy, I get better"

 

When I sit around and focus on my GF or my break up and or my job or anything, I seem to get unwell, then I start obsessing, then I seem to actually create the very things I am afraid of happening, then I say to myself "see see? I was RIGHT!!!"

 

When I live a balanced life, hit some meetings, have some fun, have date night now and again, work with others, like newcomers, enjoy my hobbies, I am well, when I spend all my time wrapped in self, I get sick, Glad posted this on the AA forum, and it took a minute but started sinking in pretty deep

"Self dethroned - that is the lesson, in its place put love

Cease trying to forgive those who fretted or wronged you.  It is a mistake to think about it.  Aim at killing the self now, in your daily life, and then you will find there is nothing that even remembers injury, because the only one injured, the self, is dead."

 

It's really simple, lately I haven't been doing the things that make me feel better, that make me well, so I've been emotionally unwell, instant cause and effect, and when going through break ups, I get to a place of "Act as if", as in start movement, hit meetings, do my things, go through the motions, and pretty soon, I get better, so I'm not trying to put a band aid on my ego or my hurt per se, I just move on with my life and pretty soon I am moving on with it



-- Edited by LinBaba on Wednesday 4th of May 2011 01:43:36 PM

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So You Should: Think with her. Don't assume the role of teacher or rescuer. Instead, join forces with her as a respectful and equal team member.

Notice that being the opposite of the abuser does not simply mean saying the opposite of what he says. If he beseeches her with, "Don't leave me, don't leave me," and you stand on the other side badgering her with, "Leave him, leave him," she will feel that you're much like him; you are both pressuring her to accept your judgement of what she should do. Neither of you is asking the empowering question, "What do you want to do?"
When I read that I threw up in my mouth a little bit
The Abuser: Was me
I did ALL of that
Pressures her severely
Talks down to her
Thinks he knows what is good for her better than she does
Dominates conversations

Believes he has the right to control her life (her thinking, saying I knew what was -best- for her, etc)

Thinks for her


So, this really hit home with me. I do all of these things (with the best intentions) and it does cause a lot of heartache. How do you stop? How do you sit back and let this other person do things that hurt themselves and their families and say nothing?


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Thanks for those thoughts Linbaba, I guess I'm being pretty hard on myself by expecting this way of thinking to disappear so quickly after I've only just become aware of it. I had no idea until very recently that I was being so punishing of myself. I wasn't aware of the thoughts and so could blame other people for the feelings. Now I'm aware what I'm telling myself about myself in relation to other people isn't the truth so understand I am responsible for my feelings. Just beginning to not believe what I'm telling myself, and wanting very much to stop emotionally abusing myself. It hurts to know I hurt myself far more than anyone else ever does, and to not at this time be able to stop doing it. Today, I just kept handing it over and asking for it to be removed and then went and did something useful, but could hear my thoughts throughout the day working hard to hook me back in, it was exhausting to not buy into them. Actually found mysefl saying "No!" out loud when another load negative nastiness went through my mind, just to stop it in it's tracks. Guess it's a new habit I'm making and it's still really new. I keep turning the thoughts into their opposite, "That isn't the truth about me, I am very (insert positive here)." Saying it out loud to myself helps too.

Hi Momofall, I guess awareness is the first step, it was for me. I'm still working on being able to do it so I don't have to much esh to share other than to say I can relate to the pain of seeing the truth of how much we hurt people without realising that's what we're doing.
Freya

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Freya



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When I work the steps with a sponsee the first thing I tell them is "put down the bat", the bat they are beating themselves with, easier said then done, then a sponsor had me do what he called "step 0" this sh*t's gotta stop" write down all the reasons these obsessing, looping thoughts about you and your break up need to stop, on the paper I saw solution, all the things I had written down were solution based, I could replace the obsessions with what I had written when the looping would start, when the tapes started playing I had a few pages of antidotes, working the steps about a particular issue has been helpful as well, I am powerless over _____ and my life is unmanageable

Another thing I did that was absolutely amazing, life changing was my sponsor told me to do something nice for someone every day for thirty days, and if anyone found out or I told anyone it didn't count...it was...excruciating...it made me realize how much of what I did was for one reason or another, validation, thanks, putting chits in the favor bank, it's like finding out my whole life was just one big manipulation

It was put to me if you want good self esteem, do esteemable acts, esteemable acts being acts for which we take NO credit for, they say "Virtue is it's own reward" because when we do it for a payback, it's no longer virtue

Also knowing in my heart of hearts that guilt, shame and pain are "the dis-ease" not the solution, the "dis-ease" will do anything and everything to protect itself, and guilt and shame ARE the dis-ease, self perpetuaing cycle, so when these crop up I immediately ask to have them removed, I even write them down and put them in a book or something, I put them in a "God Box" and when they crop up I can tell myself I have 'turned them over to God"

these are steps I have taken when in your shoes



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For me, accepting abuse from others and from myself was directly tied to my low self esteem.  I didn't think I deserved better.  I did not have boundaries around infidelity, being lied to, emotionally and verbally abused, and all the other stuff that goes along with that plus being blamed for the other person's behavior.  When these things happened I told myself I deserved it - the only reason that they were happening is because there was something wrong with me.  I believed it when he said "You make me act like this".  If I tried harder it would change.  When my efforts got me nowhere I would become extremely angry and abusive, thinking I had every right - which falls in line with this post - it is not acceptable, recommended, or good recovery to respond to abuse with abuse.  That still means I am wrong and owe an amends.  It is up to me to set boundaries to take care of myself.  If I fail to do that, then it is on me and I need to hold myself accountable for how I am allowing myself to be treated.  I need to apologize for my behavior to myself and my partner.  I need to forgive myself and move on - and make a living amends to not do that again - mostly for myself.

For me, working the steps was a HUGE help to my self esteem.  I had been convinced that I was a sick, horrible, untrustworthy liar who made him sick (mentally) and just knew that when I did the steps that would become so very clear - that he was right.  I won't say I didn't find any of that in my inventory - but much less than expected - definitely within normal "human condition" limits (prior to my relationship with him).  That helped.  I didn't have to believe the stories that I or anyone else told me about being a "bad" person, because it was right there on paper.  I wasn't that bad after all and I needed to believe that, deep down in my soul, and treat myself like I deserve and don't let anyone else ever treat me like that again.

What also helped was trying to change those behaviors that did cause me trouble.  The steps helped me clearly identify things to work on - things that were painful, embarrassing to admit, but the steps gave me hope for change.  If I do my amends and then make efforts to keep my side of the street clean on a regular basis, then I don't have many regrets or guilt.  I know in my heart that I have done my best and that is all I or anyone else can expect.  It takes time.  It grows daily as the shame, hurt, and guilt of my past learn to stay in the past and I build a better life.

As an abuse survivor I know what it is like to carry simmering anger inside and it escapes and can be directed at undeserving victims.  It can be very difficult to not respond in anger and set healthy boundaries around emotional abuse of any kind, but that which you have done absolutely nothing to provoke is extremely confusing on top of everything.  I completely agree that regardless of what is coming your direction, responding with compassion - at the very least calm and dignity - and taking care of yourself is always appropriate (and oh so very hard).  Responding to abuse with abuse just makes a really big mess and keeps the wheels turning until they fall off.

I am very glad I am working the steps again and truly believe that more will be revealed.  Awareness is the first step and doing my inventory again will hopefully help me be more honest about who I am, why I do what I do, and what I need to change.

Linistea



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For me, I am convinced that by sitting in meetings, and talking regularly with my sponsor, my brain is being re-trained. My compulsive thinking and those old negative tapes playing over and over in my head, no longer occupy my mind like they used to.

My sponsor always tells me that my brain re-"minds" me of things, that is the job of the brain. But, my brain is not always my friend. It's up to me to feed my brain positive messages now.

Recovery is all about developing a relationship with Higher power.  Meditation is a necessary practice for me, to "feel" the connection, I do it twice a day.  If I didn't learn to turn off my monkey-mind, I would go insane. Practicing meditation gives me some precision of the mind, I can catch myself when I feel myself getting emotionally hooked.

I am reminded of Eckhart Tolle's story, Can You Hear the Mountain Stream?

A Zen Master was walking with one of his disciples, a young monk, along a mountain trail... they sit down under a tree and the disciple, who had not yet found the key to the mystery of Zen, broke the silence by asking, "Master, how do I enter Zen?"

He was, of course, inquiring how to enter the state of consciousness which is Zen.

The Master remained silent. Almost five minutes passed while the disciple anxiously waited for an answer. He was about to ask another question when the Master suddenly spoke.

"Do you hear the sound of that mountain stream?"

The disciple had not been aware of any mountain stream. He had been too busy thinking about the meaning of Zen. Now, as he began to listen for the sound, his noisy mind subsided. At first, he heard nothing. Then, his thinking gave way to heightened alertness, and suddenly he did hear the hardly perceptible murmur of a small stream in the faraway distance.

"Yes, I can hear it now," he said.

"Enter Zen from there," said the Master.

They continued on their journey in silence. The disciple was amazed at the aliveness of the world around him. He experienced everything as if for the first time. Gradually, however, he started thinking again. The alert stillness became covered up again by mental noise, and before long, he had another question.

"Master, I have been thinking. What would you have said if I hadn't been able to hear the mountain stream?"

The Master stopped, looked at him and said, "Enter Zen from there."

 

(((hugs)))



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This thread is so timely for me. My boyfriend and I just had yet another one of our get back together/break up episodes and it has left me feeling completely overwrought and sick. We have this pattern where we get along great for a while, then I have an irritable or hormonal moment and say/do something stupid and he reacts with complete intolerance and condemnation of my "emotionalism." Then I in turn become alternately enraged at his lack of compassion and panic stricken that he'll leave me because I've (yet again) screwed up by displaying human weakness and frailty. It's so sick and it results in my plunging into deep despair and self-loathing.

I feel horrible and don't know what to do, but this board helps. Thank you all.

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Myopia1964 wrote:

This thread is so timely for me. My boyfriend and I just had yet another one of our get back together/break up episodes and it has left me feeling completely overwrought and sick. We have this pattern where we get along great for a while, then I have an irritable or hormonal moment and say/do something stupid and he reacts with complete intolerance and condemnation of my "emotionalism." Then I in turn become alternately enraged at his lack of compassion and panic stricken that he'll leave me because I've (yet again) screwed up by displaying human weakness and frailty. It's so sick and it results in my plunging into deep despair and self-loathing.

I feel horrible and don't know what to do, but this board helps. Thank you all.


((((hugs))))
I -so- relate
for me what I am -trying- to do is throw away the "chicken and the egg- part that gets me stuck, that's what we would fight about is who started it, who's behavior was "justified" and who was "pushed" and "tortured" into being abusive, like "you are really the guilty one because I was just reacting to your abuse" which is how we both saw it...and there is no recovery there for me, when I was saying it was her fault I acted this way and got abusive in response to her being abusive the cycle kept continuing and we continued to hold on to those resentments and blame each other for who started it and we'd both be "victims" of the others abuse, only acting the way we did in response to the other person being abusive
so tiring, and I had no answers until I just took her out of the equation, it's my inventory, not hers, how she views it is none of my business any more, making amends and not doing it any more regardless of the circumstances is, as long as I blamed her for my own behavior it was just "more of the same"
Bill talks about when doing an inventory we had to drop the word "blame" from our speech, the inventory was ours not the other persons, I found for me in order to actually get past the resentment and being a "victim" I had to remove the other person from my inventory entirely, or it's not an inventory but a catologue of the other persons wrongs, and since we are powerless over them, and my recovery depends on them changing, I am setting myself up for failure, whereas if I remove her from my inventory entirely I now have a format for health as stated in the serenity prayer
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
I can't change the past, and I can't change another person, but I can change me
These are the key for me:

 Our present anxieties and trouble, we cry, are caused by the behavior of other people-people who really need a moral inventory. We firmly believe that if only they'd treat us better, we'd be all right. Therefore we think our indignation is justified and reasonable-that our resentments are the "right kind." We aren't the guilty one. They are!" , To see how erratic emotions victimized us often took a long time. We could perceive them quickly in others, but only slowly in ourselves. The moment we ponder a twisted or broken relationship with another person, our emotions go on the defensive. To escape looking at the wrongs we have done another, we resentfully focus on the wrong he has done us. This is especially true if he has, in fact, behaved badly at all. Triumphantly we seize upon his misbehavior as the perfect excuse for minimizing or forgetting our own.

Right here we need to fetch ourselves up sharply. It doesn't make much sense when a real tosspot calls a kettle black. Let's remember that we are not the only ones bedeviled by sick emotions. Moreover, it is usually a fact that our behavior has aggravated the defects of others. We've repeatedly strained the patience of our best friends to a snapping point, and have brought out the very worst in those who didn't think much of us to begin with. In many instances we are really dealing with fellow sufferers, people whose woes we have increased.

and

We went back through our lives. Nothing counted but thoroughness and honesty. When we were finished we considered it carefully. The first thing apparent was that this world and its people were often quite wrong. To conclude that others were wrong was as far as most of us ever got. The usual outcome was that people continued to wrong us and we stayed sore. Sometimes it was remorse and then we were sore at ourselves. But the more we fought and tried to have our own way, the worse matters got. As in war, the victor only seemed to win. Our moments of triumph were short-lived.

It is plain that a life which includes deep resentment leads only to futility and unhappiness. To the precise extent that we permit these, do we squander the hours that might have been worth while. But with the alcoholic, whose hope is the maintenanc e and growth of a spiritual experience, this business of resentment is infinitely grave. We found that it is fatal. For when harboring such feeling we shut ourselves off from the sunlight of the Spirit.

If we were to live, we had to be free of anger. The grouch and the brainstorm were not for us. They may be the dubious luxury of normal men, but for -us- these things are poison.

We turned back to the list, for it held the key to the future. We were prepared to look for it from an entirely different angle. We began to see that the world and its people really dominated us. In that state, the wrong-doing of others, fancied or real, had power to actually kill. How could we escape? We saw that these resentments must be mastered, but how?

This was our course: We realized that the people who wronged us were perhaps spiritually sick. Though we did not like their symptoms and the way these disturbed us, they, like ourselves, were sick too. We asked God to help us show them the same tole rance, pity, and patience that we would cheerfully grant a sick friend. When a person offended we said to ourselves, "This is a sick man. How can I be helpful to him? God save me from being angry. Thy will be done."

We avoid retaliation or argument. We wouldn't treat sick people that way. If we do, we destroy our chance of being helpful. We cannot be helpful to all people, but at least God will show us how to take a kindly and tolerant view of each and every one.

Referring to our list again. Putting out of our minds the wrongs others had done, we resolutely looked for our own mistakes. Where had we been selfish, dishonest, self-seeking and frightened? Though a situation had not been entirely our fault, we tr ied to disregard the other person involved entirely. Where were we to blame? The inventory was ours, not the other man's. When we saw our faults we listed them. We placed them before us in black and white. We admitted our wrongs honestly and were willing to set these matters straight.


 So when I thought she -caused- my behavior, and that my behavior was just a -reaction- to her -abuse- I didn't have to take full responsibility for my behavior so I still carried resentment, which in turn lead to more fights...

so tiring.......it stops here, I don't care any more what came first the chicken or the egg, I am now poultry intolerant

When I focus on the problem (the wrongs she supposedly did to me) the problem increases, when I focus on the solution (how to be a better man today) the solution increases, the funny thing is when I act differently towards her, even if we start going down well trodden paths, she responds differently, making it a moot point anyway, so I don't care any more who's "fault" it was




-- Edited by LinBaba on Thursday 5th of May 2011 10:13:38 AM

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Thanks Lin...I too would like to be "poultry intolerant" but I find it very hard to do, especially when I truly love (attach myself) to someone and the thought of letting them go is too excruciating to bear. I will fight and fight and attempt to "fix" everything rather than endure the pain of detaching. This is such a horrible way to live and it makes me wonder if I can ever live successfully with another person.

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Myopia1964 wrote:

Thanks Lin...I too would like to be "poultry intolerant" but I find it very hard to do, especially when I truly love (attach myself) to someone and the thought of letting them go is too excruciating to bear. I will fight and fight and attempt to "fix" everything rather than endure the pain of detaching. This is such a horrible way to live and it makes me wonder if I can ever live successfully with another person.


 No, I get it, "manning up" and saying "it's on me" and ONLY referring to the wrongs I have done IS excruciating, I so desperately want acknowledgement and reciprication the bile rises in my throat, but on that path lies madness...I would say "trust me" but this is a boat we are on together, we both have clear evidence of where that type of wishful thinking leaves us



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This thread is so helpful to me. Thank you for your shares. I find this board such a great place to come to be able to process what I'm experiencing, and reading through other people's experience, strength and hope makes a massive difference in helping me see I have choices in how I choose to behave. Thank you.
Freya

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Its an incredible tiring and pathetic dance. You abused me, no you abused me, back and forth aut nauseum. Like  linbaba said, there is no recovery it. Its exhausting and fruitless. Yet when the music starts, all the dancers take their position, and off we go. Inventory is the only solution, and then taking different actions till I find the ones that work. Knowing what the problem is though is not so simple, its not like alcohol. I drink, I get drunk, it hurts, alcohol will not change. But people on the other hand can change, and there lies the seat of the insanity for me. Knowing exactly what I am doing ( in the problem ) is imperative. Im 100% with Linbaba and what Bill W wrote for the inventory process. I have done it more then a few times and I will for the rest of my life. When it comes to this recovery stuff, I'm a lifer.  Studying codependency recovery I have found some really usefull info, very simple, but it has added so much insight and depth to my invitory prosess and I am gratefull.   The Karpmen Drama Triangle or the victim triangle.  When **** is falling apart, I can see myself dancing around the triangle.

 

  

The Three Faces of Victim

An Overview of the Drama Triangle

By Lynne Forrest

Revised 2008


Whether we know it, or not, most of us react to life as victims. Whenever we refuse to take responsibility for ourselves, we are unconsciously choosing to react as victim. This inevitably creates feelings of anger, fear, guilt or inadequacy and leaves us feeling betrayed, or taken advantage of by others.


Victim-hood can be defined by the three positions beautifully outlined in a diagram developed by a well respected psychiatrist, and teacher of Transactional Analysis, named Stephen Karpman. He calls it the “drama triangle”, I will refer to it as the victim triangle. Having discovered this resource some thirty years ago, it has become one of the more important tools in my personal and professional life. The more I teach and apply the victim triangle to relationship the deeper my appreciation grows for this simple, powerfully accurate instrument.


I’ve sometimes referred to the victim triangle as a "shame generator" because through it we unconsciously re-enact painful life themes that create shame. This has the effect of reinforcing old, painful beliefs that keep us stuck in a limited version of reality.

 
I believe that every dysfunctional interaction, in relationship with other or self, takes place on the victim triangle. But until we become conscious of these dynamics, we cannot transform them. And unless we transform them, we cannot move forward on our journey towards re-claiming emotional, mental and spiritual well-being.


The three roles on the victim triangle are Persecutor, Rescuer and Victim. Karpman placed these three roles on an inverted triangle and described them as being the three aspects, or faces of victim. No matter where we may start out on the triangle, victim is where we end up, therefore no matter what role we’re in on the triangle, we’re in victimhood. If we’re on the triangle we’re living as victims, plain and simple!

Drama Triangle, Victim Triangle, Persector, Rescuer, Victim

Each person has a primary or most familiar role - what I call their “starting gate” position. This is the place from which we generally enter, or “get hooked” onto, the triangle. We first learn our starting gate position in our family of origin. Although we each have a role with which we most identify, once we’re on the triangle, we automatically rotate through all the positions, going completely around the triangle, sometimes in a matter of minutes, or even seconds, many times every day.

Its way too long to paste it all

continued @..  http://www.lynneforrest.com/html/the_faces_of_victim.html



 



-- Edited by billyjack on Tuesday 10th of May 2011 06:45:18 AM

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Billy Jack, my version of that is the proqression from

Hero - the qoal all codependents, if that doesn't work then

Savior - the next best thinq, if that's not available then

Martyr - after all that I've done for you and you don't qive me any credit, no results from that then

Victim - the above plus you abused and took advantaqe of me and my qood nature

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Great Find Billy, I have seen this before but never explained in such detail in such a way it becomes so clear...either that or I just wasn't ready to "see" it, but incredible how both partners can view themselves as "The victim" of the relationship, first off as the rescuer, and then as the victim, but in many years of sponsoring it's amazing how many see themselves as "the victim" or "The Rescuer" and their partner as "The Persecutor" and if you ask the partner, THEY view their signifigant other as the persecutor and themselves as "The Victim", when in fact I think it's kind of like the Love Addict/Love Avoidant roles, we may have one dominant trait but in these unhealthy dynamics we cycle through every role, thus each partner can point to the other and say "(s)he is the persecutor, I am the victim, (S)he is the love avoidant, I am the love addict, which is another "victim" role

Like the other roles, the Starting Gate Persecutor is shame based. This role is most often taken on by someone who received overt mental and/or physical abuse during their childhood. As a result they are often secretly seething inside from a shame based wrath that ends up running their lives. SGPs, for survival sake, repress deep-seated feelings of worthlessness; they hide their pain behind a facade of indignant wrath and uncaring detachment. They may choose to emulate their primary childhood abuser(s), preferring to identify with those they see as having power and strength - rather than become the “picked on loser” at the bottom of life’s pile. SGP’s tend to adopt an attitude that says; “The world is hard and mean ... only the ruthless survive. I’ll be one of those”. In other words, they become perpetrators. They “protect” themselves using authoritarian, controlling and downright punishing methods.


The Persecutor overcomes feelings of helplessness and shame by over-powering others. Domination becomes their most prevalent style of interaction. This means they must always be right! Their methods include bullying, preaching, threatening, blaming, lecturing, interrogating and outright attack. They believe in getting even, very often through aggressive acts. Just like the Rescuer needs someone to fix, the Persecutor needs someone to blame. SGP’s deny their vulnerability in the same way Rescuers deny their needs. Their greatest fear is powerlessness. Because they judge and deny their own inadequacy, fear and vulnerability, they will need some place else to project these disowned feelings. In other words, they need a victim. They need someone they perceive as weak to prove to themselves that their own destructively painful story about the world is true. Both Rescuers and Persecutors unconsciously “need” a Victim in order to sustain their idea of who they are and what the world is like.


Persecutors also tend to compensate for inner feelings of worthlessness by putting on grandiose airs. Grandiosity inevitably comes from shame. It is a compensation and cover-up for deep inferiority. Superiority is the attempt to swing hard to the other side of "less than" in order to come across as "better than".


It is most difficult for someone in Persecutor to take responsibility for the way they hurt others. In their mind, others deserve what they get. These warring individuals tend to see themselves as having to constantly fight for survival. Theirs is a constant struggle to protect themselves in what they perceive as a hostile world.

Attack, for the Persecutor, becomes the accepted way to express these powers and is then justified as a necessary defense. Simultaneously, a SGP will see themselves only as the innocent victim ... “They hurt me - I had to protect myself by retaliating”. It’s hard for any of us to admit we mistreat people. Persecutors justify their hurtful behavior with “good reasons” (“... because they did something to me” or “took something from me”) and this makes it okay, in their minds, to hurt “back”. This is typical Persecutor mentality. SGP’s have suppressed their caring, nurturing qualities, and instead, tend to problem solve through anger, abuse and control.

And the victim "needs" a persecutor to "prove" the world is a hostile place where people hurt and abuse them, thus both partners continue to create, or re-create their own reality, proving to themselves and anyone who will listen that they really are "innocent victims" of a hostile world, whether they are the persecutor OR the victim, both view themself as the wronged party

It is always difficult for SGP’s to perceive themselves as persecutors. It is much easier to justify the necessity for persecution (thereby identifying with victim) than to own the oppressor role. The SGP cycle looks something like: "I was just trying to help (rescuer), and they turned on me (victim), so I had to defend myself by striking back (persecutor).”
It can feel very threatening for someone stuck in Persecutor consciousness to get really honest with themselves. To do so feels like blaming themselves, which only intensifies their internal condemnation. SGP’s need to have a situation or person they can blame so they can stay angry. Anger, for a SGP, can act as a fuel within the psyche to energize them. It may be the only way they have of dealing with chronic depression. SGPs often need a jolt of rage the same way other people depend on a shot of caffeine. It jump-starts their day and provides them with the energy needed to keep them on their feet.


Just as with the other roles, self-accountability is the only way off the victim grid for the SGP. There has to be some kind of breakthrough for them to own their part. Unfortunately, because of their great reluctance to do so, it may have to come in the form of crisis.
Ironically, a main exit way off the triangle is through the persecutor position. This does not mean we become persecutors. It does mean however, that once we decide to get off the triangle, there most likely will be those who see us as persecutors. (”How can you do this to me?”) Once we decide to take self-responsibility and tell our truth, those still on the triangle are likely to accuse us of victimizing them. "How dare you refuse to take care of me," a Victim might cry. Or "What do you mean you don't need my help?" a primary enabler storms when their victim decides to become accountable. In other words, to escape the victim grid, we must be willing to be perceived as the "bad guy." This doesn't make it so, but we must be willing to sit with the discomfort of being perceived as such.

So it's "easy" to fingerpoint and blame if one's partner is a starting gate persecutor, thus not take responsibility for one's self and view ourselves as the innocent victim but that's just not the case, it really does take two to tango, I think that's why Bill is so very emphatic about not blaming other people for our behavior, then it's not an "inventory" it's victimhood and persecutor rolled up into one

 Our present anxieties and trouble, we cry, are caused by the behavior of other people-people who really need a moral inventory. We firmly believe that if only they'd treat us better, we'd be all right. Therefore we think our indignation is justified and reasonable-that our resentments are the "right kind." We aren't the guilty one. They are!" , To see how erratic emotions victimized us often took a long time. We could perceive them quickly in others, but only slowly in ourselves. The moment we ponder a twisted or broken relationship with another person, our emotions go on the defensive. To escape looking at the wrongs we have done another, we resentfully focus on the wrong he has done us. This is especially true if he has, in fact, behaved badly at all. Triumphantly we seize upon his misbehavior as the perfect excuse for minimizing or forgetting our own.

For me, one of the biggest difficulties in overcoming codependency is when I DID pick a Starting Gate Persecutor, I had an almost complete inability to see my own part, because I thought it was "their fault" I felt the way I did thus acted the way I did, I would grab on to their behavior and use it to justify my own when -I- became the persecutor, "my behavior is YOUR fault" I would say thus becoming "them", which would cause the cycle to repeat, they would retaliate with "No, my behavior is YOUR fault, you DESERVE how I treat you" and then we would both become "the victim" while accusing the other of being the persecutor, and it would become a series of retaliations while ignoring and minimizing our own behavior, because we literally couldn't see our own behavior through the film of pain seemingly "caused" by the other person, thus it became a cycle of abuse with both of us blaming the other

My uncle said something about my mother years ago that really struck a chord, he said "She has her life set up so she can play the martyr and wear the pants at the same time" and it is true, all of these dynamics are about control, my mother would go "waaa waa waa" about her life but when I stepped in to change things (because she asked me to) punishment was swift and merciless, she didn't want change, she wanted me to fit into her "machine", and it's amazing how it all fits in with -rescuer/love addict/victim- finding -victim/love avoidant/persecutor- and perpetuating the cycle, with each partner playing out their assigned roles in order to re-enforce both their own roles and their partners and even swapping roles as power goes from one partner to the other

Anyway, my mother asked me to come take over her business years ago and we sat down and had many many meetings about how we wanted to do this and the direction we wanted to go, we were very clear, we had a good plan, we shook hands so I moved up on her property, started working for her, learned her business and then set about making all the changes we had discussed, and I got resistance at every turn, she had her husband washing dishes, another old friend prep cooking, another old friend doing her books, and the restaurant was hideously inefficient and it was beginning to lose money, so I suggested she modify the schedule, and get another book-keeper as the one she had was costing the restaurant at -least- 10,000 dollars a year, probably more, we had discussed these changes, we had agreed on these changes but when I went to implement them I first got resistance from all the employees, and then after a few months I realized it was all her, -she- was the one resisting the changes, everyone kept telling me, "Andrew, you can't just come in and change this place all around" and my response was, "that's EXACTLY why I was brought in the first place"

But I remember that moment of realization and that confrontation with her, "Mom...it's not them...it's all YOU, you are the one blocking all these changes we discussed and agreed on and you are using -them- as your "agents" in order to not have to have a "confrontation" and tell me the truth yourself"

She agreed, it WAS all her, by then I had spent all my money from selling my business building a house, my girlfriend had just broken up with me and told me that -my- place that she was living in was no longer -mine- but hers, and I couldn't move back, so I was broke, not earning any money since part of the deal was just about all income went to supporting the -whole- family, my mother, step-father, sister, and niece, and that's when my mother said "Son, I changed my mind, I -DON'T want to make these changes we agreed on" and she also, without telling me withdrew the rest of her agreement, ie I would run the restaurant for 5 years and then she would sign it over to me, along with her portion of the family land, the land to be held in trust for my niece...

Anyway (I'm trying to make this short) although I went in with a reasonably healthy recovery and reasonably healthy boundaries, I got incredibly sick trying to "change the dynamic, or trying to "control" my mother, I had forgotten step one, and me thinking I -could- rescue her and my family is ultimately what made me sick, -she- didn't -make- me sick, me playing the game with her did, anyhow, the next few years were a living hell, she doubled my hours, cut my pay in half, and whenever I would try to make changes, punishment was swift and merciless, over time I found she was making a LOT more money running a "failing" business by crying poor to our family and having family members send money ostensibly to support my sister and her daughter, and if my sister started working, earning money, and the restaurant started showing a clear profit the monthly checks to her would stop....

I went -crazy-, I felt so trapped, I couldn't leave, I didn't have any money and I didn't have any where to go, and I got -MEAN-, and I got -ANGRY-, and I got more and more powerless, the more I struggled, the worse it got...it was crazy making, and I went crazy...I became "The Persecutor", and my mother became "the victim", I said awful terrible things to my mother, I have never been so twisted and angry in my life, and I felt I was justified since "Look at what she did to me", and then I felt ashamed of my anger and lashing out

That became the model for my relationship past as an alcoholic male, as it was in this relationship with my mother, I would start out as "The Rescuer" (emotional rescuer) or Designated Patient, and then BECOME "the Victim" and end up as "The Persecutor", and I would have relationships, like I described in this thread with a persecutor who didn't want to "fix" me, she wanted to blame me, because when she did "fix" me, or when I did quit drinking/smoking/womanizing/went to college/got a career/became neat she just got more and more angry and more and more helpless and powerless, but in the end I became the persecutor, and if you asked her, although I view HER as the starting Gate persecutor she views me in the same way, she would think SHE started as "The Rescuer" so I think if we get on to this triangle, we end up going through all three phases, so ultimately the only way to "win" is not to play, to NOT rescue, to NOT be a victim, to NOT be belittled, to set healthy boundaries and choose our partners wisely

Although I reacted to my mother as the result of our relationship, and I have lashed out in the past at other partners as the result of our relationship, it's NEVER "justified"...never

I had to baldly state "I did these things...and KNOW in my heart...it's not your fault I acted this way...two wrongs NEVER make a right, especially when I act and react in such a way that triggers the other person so we begin a cycle of abuse

I think it's possible these cycles can be broken in a relationship, but I think it takes work from both parties, I think both parties have to "man up" and say "No More" and say to themselves AND their partner, "Yes, I did these things, but it stops here"

victims don't recover, but if that's the case, neither do persecutors or rescuers, so I think ALL of these behaviors need to be discarded as equally unhealthy, since one leads to the other like night follows day



-- Edited by LinBaba on Wednesday 11th of May 2011 09:03:32 AM

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LinBaba,

Thanks for posting about this book.  I bought it last year and my God it opened my eyes.  I originally borrowed it to try and work out my husband, why he was so angry.  Then when I started reading it I realised it described my Mother?????  I couldn't sleep, eat, even my cycle was delayed (not a good thing when we already have 6 children).  It really opened my mind.  You know the circle drawings in the first few chapters where he describes the rights of individuals in a normal family and then ones in an abusive family that really hit home.  She is still the same at times.  From there then I saw my first partner's behaviour in it too and now my husband at times as well.  I never realised my first partner was abusive he'ld come for a while, we'ld have a fight and then he'ld take off for months.  Next thing we'ld be back together.  It's all in this book.

 Then as you sais yes I started seeing my own behaviour rearing up at times.  I became more aware of how I was speaking and acting not only with other adults but with my own children.  It's like doing an inventory, sometimes I realise in time and other times I'm in the middle of it when wham, I think what am I doing.  Then I quick make a change.

Again thanks for bringing it up, I'll have to ask for my copy back.

Tracey



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For me, breaking the triangle is about being honest with myself, stepping into reality, and owning my part.

I was not a victim, I was a volunteer.  Fool me once, shame on you . . . fool me twice, shame on me.  If I have no boundaries and do not take care of myself - I am responsible for the outcome.

I was not a persecutor, I was abusive.  Regardless of why I lashed out and name-called, I was still doing it.  There is no justification.

I was not just a rescuer, I was an enabler and a scapegoat.  The biggest thing of all for me was enabling them to continue to treat me the way they had been treating me.  They didn't have to be accountable for their behavior, in fact, I took responsibility for it.  I carried guilt and shame for things I hadn't even done that they were doing that they accused me of.  I was responsible.  I had to fix it.

If I had created this concept I don't know that I would have chosen a triangle.  I think I would have chosen a circle.  It is like a steam roller - each feeding the next and interchanging so fast it makes your head spin.

So, in my little fantasy world I can play victim, martyr, and scream poor me with my hand to my forehead... or admit I am simply a volunteer.  I can claim rescuer with the Superwoman cape on or be honest and own that I was enabling and supporting poor behavior.  Last, I can claim the badge wearing persecutor feeling justified in "laying down the law (that I never enforced), fighting back, or protecting myself" or I can own that I was abusive.

Believe it or not.  That honesty feels good.

Linistea



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