I am struggling with something. I understand and accept that it is unhealthy to derive my sense of self-worth from another person. I truly get that. I also admit that it's been hard for me at times in relationships to distinguish my own self from another...to see where I end and another person begins. I do get completely consumed by my relationships and my obsession with people.
I have spent enough time alone to know that I can rely totally on myself and be fine. In fact, I basically have been self-sufficient most of my adult life, even when I was in relationships, because I have ALWAYS chosen men who were selfish, childlike, or unable to provide me with any emotional or practical support for various reasons. My tendency to gravitate to this type of man has been a lifelong pattern. I tended to be the supportive, caring, helpful one who did all the accommodating and, if I'm honest with myself...I liked it that way...gave me the power, right? But then, during those inevitable times when I crumble or fall apart emotionally, these same men have been the type to turn around and literally run away. As my current boyfriend puts it, he just can't "deal" with emotional crises (unless it's his own, of course). Predictably, my very weak partners (whom I deliberately chose) have bailed on me just at my greatest moment of need, which of course triggers terrible PTSD in a ACOA person with abandonment issues. With my boyfriend, for example, I constantly feel like I'm on a shaky, swaying platform that will give way if I make the slightest movement in the wrong direction.
What I don't understand is, even though we should all be happy without any attachment to another person, what is wrong with the desire to be in a fulfilling supportive relationship? What is wrong with having the expectation that you can lean on someone in times of need or frailty and that you can depend on someone to not abandon you? Other people seem to pull that off successfully, why not me? As an ACOA, why do I have to lower my standards (unlike other people) and just assume that I'm on my own and that no one will be there for me? Isn't this just fulfilling the expectation that was set up in my childhood, when I was taught that I had no one solid to lean on?
Quite honestly, I am tired of doing it all alone. I have been through my daughter's cancer treatment (twice), the deaths of both my parents, the completion of two master's degrees, and much more and done it entirely without support. I am a single mother working a stressful, professional job, I own a home, do community service...and I do it all alone. Right now I just feel like lying down and never getting up again. It would just be nice to have someone to shoulder the burden, but I never do. Is that really too much to ask??? I honestly don't know how much longer I can keep it all together.
-- Edited by Myopia1964 on Thursday 5th of May 2011 11:14:13 AM
For me Stoicism is optional, I can cry, rage, storm, hurt, etc, but compassion for myself and others is necessary
Compassion for myself, forgiveness for myself lets go of the guilt and shame, the two things keeping me sick in the first place, and compassion for others, so I can forgive them and myself, so when I have compassion and forgiveness, I can get on the business of changing those things in me causing recurring trouble and pain
After working with a few dozen hundred sponsees (exaggeration) I did begin to notice something about every. single. one. of them and their relationships....they chose partners with matching mental illnesses, if they were emotionally unavailable, they chose partners that were emotionally unavailable so they wouldn't have to look at that quality in themselves, if they had low self esteem, they chose people who would hurt them, control them, and re-enforce their low self esteem, if they were "fixers" they chose broken people, then were surprised when the broken people couldn't give them the support they so desperately needed themselves, since all "fixing" other people is is another way to avoid the broken parts of ourselves...so after I saw this over and over and over and over and it was NEVER wrong, I was like "Light Bulb!!!!", oh my god, if it's true for them it must be true for me
A good indiciation of someone's -real- mental health is determined by who they chose to spend their time with, it's fool-proof, so a good indication of -my- mental health and look around at who I am spending time with
So I finally get to the relationship portion of the fourth step, I have to write out ALL my relationship history, everything I have ever done wrong, all the harms I have done and a number of things begin coming clear..
I am having the same relationship over and over again
so I go over it with my sponsor, he points out about a million things I either didn't see or was completely delusional about and we get to "the ideal"
I have to write out what my "sexual/relationship ideal" is....everything I want in a partner, wooo hoooooo!!!
I go over it with a fine tooth comb, listing all the qualities I want, good communicator, non judgmental, honest, loving, kind, blah blah
I hand him the list....he barely looks at it and says "great" and he hands me back the list..."now go become this thing, we attract what we are, if you want this in your life, become this"
After that I was on my own, I mean I went to therapy and stuff, continued to work on myself, blah blah but I had the list...so there was no reason to...not keep trying, every time I stumbled I got up, brushed myself off and went, "oh well, one more no closer to a yes" and kept on keeping on, the one funny thing I did notice however is the healthiest people, the healthiest relationships do come when I stop worrying about it, I truly believe, because it has been proven to me time and time again, "renounce the garment of the lord and recieve it back as your gift" or in other words, when I don't need someone to complete me, when I stop looking and even forget I am lonely and take care of myself that person appears...then it's up to me to not fall into old patterns of behavior...or I will end up yet again "one more no closer to a yes" with more wisdom, but more bruises, and I am tired of the bruises, I am tired of picking myself up...and looking around saying to myself, "where is my heart again? I dimly remember it being ripped out and leaving it somewhere....sometimes I find it on my sleeve, sometimes I have to grow a new one.....and no amount of stoicism makes THAT hurt less...
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it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
I want to cry, rage, storm, as well, and sometimes I do exactly that. Unfortunately, I've found that, when I do that in the presence of these particular partners I've chosen in the past, I am inevitably met with disdain, judgment, and abandonment. I have learned that I am not allowed to fall apart or need support...that doing so implies extreme weakness and a character deficit. I have learned that only my partner is allowed to have needs or shortcomings and that I am expected to never screw up (this expectation of constant and unrealistic perfection manifested itself in an eating disorder in college for me). I have learned through repeated example that I can be strong and competent and stoic 99% of the time, but during that 1% of the time when I reach out to my partner for support, he jerks away, I fall to the floor and he walks away in total disgust...EVERY TIME! Sadly their contempt and their withdrawal of affection in response to my need reinforces my low self-esteem and just affirms my sense that I am a pathetic basket case undeserving of anyone's love and support. You are so right that we choose partners who reinforce our own mental illness. I have the same list of qualities in a partner that you have Lin; however, I always seem to end up with people who are the exact opposite of all of those. I kind of thought I was a good communicator, non-judgmental, honest, loving....etc. But I also think those qualities make me a perfect target for men who want to take rather than give.
This is why we have support groups, this is where we take that stuff and fall apart, I can't reasonably fall apart and expect support from my girlfriend when what I am falling apart about is her, if I say "I am upset about XYZ and here are your behaviors that triggered this" she will focus on her supposed "failures" and "hear" "this is what you did wrong" even if I try to explain, "no no no, I don't CARE about YOUR behavior, my point is I am obsessing, upset, angry blah blah whatever it is"
we have built in systems where we are like superman facing a bullet when compliments come in, they bounce off our chest unfelt and lay on the ground unseen until we trod on them unseeing as we walk away, but -one- negative thing and we take it onto our hearts and nourish it, hold onto it, have it torture us no matter who says it, but this is why we have a sponsor and people we can call and go to coffee with, they help us address those behaviors that are doing us in
for example for most of my friends if I am upset I am literally not allowed to say "my GF did this" or "my gf did that" beyond a simple statement of facts, and then we turn IMMEDIATELY to "what was your part?"
It's not fair of me to dump "my stuff" on my girl, and it's not her fault this is so, it's not "going to a hardware store for bread" it's 1/2 of why the program works, the anonymous part, sponsors can't be girlfriends, boyfriends, lovers, family members because objectivity and hurt feelings are going to happen, sponsors have to begin as "anonymous" to us so the only information they have about us is where we are in our recovery, as time goes by the relationship with our sponsor becomes fuller and deeper (which is why same sex is pretty much mandatory) but the stuff I bring to my sponsor and support group I don't bring to my relationship, and that is in order not to hurt my girl or have her hear accusation when in fact I am looking for solution, I don't care about "her part" I only care about how to get better, it's just I don't know how to broach some things in a way that wouldn't injure her, and the rule is "we must be hard on ourselves but easy on others", once I have solution is the time to bring it to her when I do my tenth step
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it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
My experience: I will start with what I identify with in your post. I too am extremely stoic. Single mom of a beautiful 18 year old and did probably 99% of the work completely on my own. Successful in my career and hopefully someday successful in my education as you are. There are times I feel the victim, tired of doing things alone, but then realize that most of the time, when I needed or was offered help I turned it way. Now sometimes that help came with strings - help not how I needed it but how they were willing to give - help and then their feeling entitled to give me advise how I should live my life - help with the need for something in return, keeping score. That help, I most definitely turned away with good reason. But sometimes I was stoic to the extreme, turning away help and isolating myself out of the old habit of protecting myself - but that habit was no longer useful, in fact it was harmful.
Second, it is about who I chose to have in my life. If I choose people who are takers and proceed to enable them and do for them what they are capable of doing for themselves then the cycle continues. A good example is my best friend. He is a quadriplegic but VERY outgoing, successful, and self-sufficient. Most of his friends are around him to see what they can get. They are there to take from him, even if it is in the guise of helping him. The drama that surrounds that and the emotional pain it causes him is hard to watch. He knows it, he has stated it before, but he hasn't set boundaries around it yet. Until he does it will continue.
Last is the ability to fall apart with your partner. This I have a real problem with and am working on. I can't do the screaming, angry, yelling fights. I can't do name calling. When I was in a toxic relationship several years ago it was my first screaming fight and the first time anyone had ever said "F' You" to me . . . E V E R (and I was 36 and divorced twice). I tolerated it - so it continued. Then I started doing it myself. I can't do that. I have zero tolerance for that. If they are crying and falling apart - I have difficulty with that as well, it makes me really uncomfortable and I have no idea how to respond. I spend so much of my time being stoic and holding in and not sharing my feelings, how the heck am I going to be able to respond to someone else's feelings in a healthy way?
That said, I am not very good with the calm discussions about how I am feeling and listening to how the other person feels either. Which is a pretty big problem. I am working on that. I know in order to have a successful relationship that is a skill I HAVE to have. Being able to state out loud, "I want to learn how to communicate with you. I want to be able to express how I feel with you. I want to be validated." Those are not outrageous needs at all, in fact I think they may even be really healthy. But until I was willing to put that on the table as an actual skill that I want to work on with my partner, I was unable to work on it - especially together because we didn't have a common goal. If I stated something that clearly, not in the midst of drama or heartache, but just in general, and got a "I can't do that" it would be time for me to rethink my choice in partners. The neat thing is, I would have never said that before recovery. I would have been the partner who said in response "I'm sorry, I can't do that." Now, even though communication skills and handling my emotions and that of others is the largest of my defects, if I can't have someone in my life who is willing to work with me on this, I'd rather be alone. Recovery has made it a priority in my life, not just wishful thinking.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a healthy, loving, supportive relationship that includes some give and take from both sides. Everyone wants that. For me, it is about changing myself to be able to function in that type of relationship and having a partner who can too. They are out there. Before recovery I found them boring and unattractive. Luckily that changes too.
Being able to state out loud, "I want to learn how to communicate with you. I want to be able to express how I feel with you. I want to be validated." Those are not outrageous needs at all, in fact I think they may even be really healthy. But until I was willing to put that on the table as an actual skill that I want to work on with my partner, I was unable to work on it - especially together because we didn't have a common goal. If I stated something that clearly, not in the midst of drama or heartache, but just in general, and got a "I can't do that" it would be time for me to rethink my choice in partners. The neat thing is, I would have never said that before recovery. I would have been the partner who said in response "I'm sorry, I can't do that."
Thank you Linistea...I appreciate you sharing examples from your life. Since I started recovery, I have made much progress. I am able to apologize and take inventory of my wrongdoings. Interestingly, I said the very same words you used above to my boyfriend just the other night...almost verbatim in fact." I told him that we both had our faults, but that I was intent on working on improving my communication skills with him, and that the only way we could move our relationship forward is to work together on the poor communication dynamic we'd established. I was very positive about all of this...suggested we go to counseling, offered to go to a counselor close to his home, and offered to let him pick the counselor to avoid bias. He claimed a counselor sided with his ex wife when they went to counseling...he's a lawyer and it's always about taking sides and right/wrong with him. His response was almost exactly what you described above..."I'm sorry, I can't do that."
It helps to hear you say that these are healthy, normal expressions of need, because, in my interactions with him, I've begun to feel that these really were outrageous requests. I believe that tells me pretty clearly that it's time to move on since I can't force him to want to change.
I too have had a problem being attracted to healthy, well-adjusted men who can communicate honestly and who aren't afraid of emotional displays (in me OR them). I think I preferred men who were were just a little aloof and distant because I was taught in childhood that you have to suppress real emotion otherwise it makes you vulnerable. You have to present a smiling, false front to the world so the outside world doesn't catch on that your family is a bunch of dysfunctional raving lunatics. Falseness/secrecy and stoicism are the tools you use to cope with alcoholism, right? If you dare to be honest, you run the risk of exposing the illness to everyone.
Just a quick illustration from my childhood that I think translates well into my adult relationships. When I was 13, I came home from school one afternoon and found a note lying (oddly enough) on the floor in the entry hall. It read "I am sick and have gone to bed. Please don't wake me." Now my mom was routinely drunk out of her gourd, often in the mid afternoon, but I was 13 and I took it literally when my mom said she was sick. I went to her room and found her unresponsive and cold to the touch in the bed. I shook her and shook her and when she wouldn't wake up, I panicked and called the neighbor across the street (unfortunately, also the nosiest neighbor on our block). It didn't occur to me that she was just passed out drunk. The neighbor came over and tried to wake my mom, and when she didn't have any luck, she called an ambulance. They arrived and were able to revive her. Once she was sober, my mother was mortified at the idea of the whole neighborhood knowing she was passed out drunk in the afternoon. She was furious at me, not remorseful for terrifying her child or appreciative for my love and concern. The message I took away from this incident...it's best to shut the hell up and facilate the other person's deceit and self-delusion, otherwise you WILL get punished.
I've wondered about the purpose of relationships too, why do we have the natural instinct to partner with someone, isn't the whole thing codependent?!
I recently started dating a man and he has offered to help me with lots of things around the house, with my car, with my pets, etc... and I have turned it all down because of my fear that I will fall into unhealthy codependency again. In the back of my mind, I'm thinking, "I should do for myself, what I can do for myself." I'm starting to wonder if it's not a ridiculous swing in the opposite direction. (I tend to do things in extremes.) What the heck is "healthy" anyway?
In my 26- year marriage, we were completely enmeshed. A year after the divorce, I got involved with a man from the other side of the planet, which nearly made me insane. When it was over, my sponsor asked me to stay out of a relationship until I could solidify a relationship with Higher power, she suggested "just 4 months." I thought I'd faint, I was so tired of seeing couples, couples everywhere!!! And I would look the woman up and down, wondering what she had that I didn't have, LOL. Defiance!!
Well, at about 4 months, just as I was beginning to feel really happy about being single... the universe brought a few men that I found very interesting, for a change. I saw it happening exactly as the 12x12 (step 12) said it would... because I really wasn't "needing" it anymore, I was finally learning to put the focus on spiritual growth before everything else, and I was starting to feel "whole," without a man in my life. I was finally learning "humility," which to me, means, "teachable." I had hated my circumstances but I finally stopped resisting. I began to accept that my home was now an inner-city apartment instead of a palace in a suburban gated community. That I no longer have a 3-car garage... now I park my car on the street where it's been broken into twice this year... that I no longer own my own washer and dryer, etc, etc. OMG, you can't imagine the self-pity that had consumed me, how defiant I have been! I can see now, the fear had to stop first. I had to replace it with faith. I had to stop seeing myself as a victim, especially when someone told me, "victims do not recover." (gulp)
My favorite post-it in the house is, "Thank you God. I trust you" - it reminds me that it is safe to accept life on life's terms.
I don't know how long this relationship will last. If it ends, I hope that my fellowship will help me to remember that love isn't outside but rather deep within... I can never lose it, it cannot leave me... it is not dependent on any other external person or form. I need this fellowship because...... I'm not a slow learner, I'm a fast forgetter. I can get lost very quickly.
I'm soo glad you're here ((hugs))
and, I love the photo of G O'K!
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"See the work. Do the work. Stay out of misery." -Maharishi
A friend of mine gave me the book "Facing Love Addiction" and it has opened my eyes to a whole new dimension of my relationship. I've alway thought that I was the problem and that my neediness and unhealthy attachment were pushing my boyfriend away. I assumed that if I could just work on myself, change my behavior and become well, then our relationship would thrive. I suggested couples' counseling and he refused because, of course, he believes there's nothing wrong with him. That made me feel even worse because it just reinforced my belief that I am a failure and and I've caused all the problems in the relationship.
Reading the book has been mind blowing for me because, I realized I'm not just co-dependent, the relationship is co-dependent, and my boyfriend is just as sick as I am, except he can't see it or examine himself (and when I suggest he do that he becomes furious and literally disappears for days). He is 100% love-avoidant. He grew up alone with a toxic single mother (dad left before he was born and his two brothers were much older and already out of the house) who openly hated men and with whom he was completely enmeshed. She treated him like a surrogate husband for years, deriving her emotional support from him, until he became a teenager and then she became enraged at him for seeking independence. I knew this woman for about 8 months before she died and she was a total recluse, deranged (not due to senile dementia...had been this way for years), blind, and diabetic. My boyfriend felt an obligation to care for her, but he couldn't stand to be around her for more than a short while. The first time I met her she said hello rather coldly and then muttered something to my boyfriend about "well, I guess you can't be alone, you have to have somebody in your life" as if she were jealous!!! It was a pretty bizarre encounter.
The result of this is that he is 54, and has a lifelong pattern of bailing out of relationships as soon as a woman needs him to be supportive..he was married for 8 years to a very dominant woman who put him through law school and was very nurturing and supportive of his needs. As soon as their son was born and things got a little stressful, he left her for another woman. He told me that he was afraid she was trying to "plan out his life for him." According to my boyfriend, "all" of the women in his life have just wanted to control him, and any kind of emotional exchange with a woman causes him anxiety and reminds him of his mom. The thing I could never figure out about him was why he seemed to NEED a woman in his life all the time if he didn't want to be in a relationship where there was give and take. Why not just be single? The book makes it clear that he has as much fear of abandonment as I do. Which explains why he keeps coming back to me and begging for another chance every single time after we break up and I've clearly moved on. But only after I've moved on and stop contacting him.
This isn't a new type of man for me. I have picked the same distant, love-avoidant, fearful man every single time. Then I throw myself at them and cry hysterically as I watch them walk away.
-- Edited by Myopia1964 on Saturday 7th of May 2011 11:46:05 AM
-- Edited by Myopia1964 on Saturday 7th of May 2011 11:47:52 AM
"In order to stop giving our power away, to stop reacting out of our inner children, to stop setting ourselves up to be victims, so that we can start learning to trust and Love ourselves, we need to begin to practice discernment. Discernment is having the eyes to see, and the ears to hear - and the ability to feel the emotional energy that is Truth.
We cannot become clear on what we are seeing or hearing if we are reacting to emotional wounds that we have not been willing/able to feel and subconscious attitudes that we have not been willing/able to look at. We cannot learn to trust ourselves as long as we are still setting ourselves up to be victimized by untrustworthy people."
***
"Not only were we taught to be victims of people, places, and things, we were taught to be victims of ourselves, of our own humanity. We were taught to take our ego-strength, our self-definition from external manifestations of our being. . . Looks, talent, intelligence external manifestations of our being are gifts to be celebrated. They are temporary gifts. They are not our total being. They do not define us or dictate if we have worth. We were taught to do it backwards. To take our self-definition and self-worth from temporary illusions outside of, or external to our beings. It does not work. It is dysfunctional."
Codependence: The Dance of Wounded Souls
Codependence and interdependence are two very different dynamics.
Codependence is about giving away power over our self-esteem. Taking our self-definition and self-worth from outside or external sources is dysfunctional because it causes us to give power over how we feel about ourselves to people and forces which we cannot control. Any time that we give power over our self-esteem to something outside of ourselves we are making that person or thing our higher power. We are worshiping false gods.
If my self-esteem is based on people, places, and things; money, property, and prestige; looks, talent, intelligence; then I am set up to be a victim. People will not always do what I want them too; property can be destroyed by an earthquake or flood or fire; money can disappear in a stock market crash or bad investment; looks change as I get older. Everything changes. All outside or external conditions are temporary.
That is why it is so important to get in touch with our Spiritual connection. To start realizing that we have worth because we are children of God. That we are all part of the Eternal ONENESS that is the God Force/Goddess Energy/Great Spirit. We are Spiritual beings having a human experienceour worth as beings is not dependent upon any outer or external condition. We are Unconditionally Loved and we always have been.
The more we can start owning the Truth of who we really are and integrating it into our relationship with ourselves, the more we can enjoy this human experience that we are having. Then we can start learning how to be interdependent - how to give power away in conscious, healthy ways because our self-worth is no longer dependent on outside sources.
Interdependence is about making allies, forming partnerships. It is about forming connections with other beings. Interdependence means that we give someone else some power over our welfare and our feelings.
Anytime we care about somebody or something we give away some power over our feelings. It is impossible to Love without giving away some power. When we choose to Love someone (or thing - a pet, a car, anything) we are giving them the power to make us happy - we cannot do that without also giving them the power to hurt us or cause us to feel angry or scared.
In order to live we need to be interdependent. We cannot participate in life without giving away some power over our feelings and our welfare. I am not talking here just about people. If we put money in a bank we are giving some power over our feelings and welfare to that bank. If we have a car we have a dependence on it and will have feelings if it something happens to it. If we live in society we have to be interdependent to some extent and give some power away. The key is to be conscious in our choices and own responsibility for the consequences.
The way to healthy interdependence is to be able to see things clearly - to see people, situations, life dynamics and most of all ourselves clearly. If we are not working on healing our childhood wounds and changing our childhood programming then we cannot begin to see ourselves clearly let alone anything else in life.
The disease of Codependence causes us to keep repeating patterns that are familiar. So we pick untrustworthy people to trust, undependable people to depend on, unavailable people to love. By healing our emotional wounds and changing our intellectual programming we can start to practice discernment in our choices so that we can change our patterns and learn to trust ourselves.
As we develop healthy self-esteem based on knowing that the Force is with us and Loves us, then we can consciously take the risk of Loving, of being interdependent, without buying into the belief that the behavior of others determines our self-worth. We will have feelings - we will get hurt, we will be scared, we will get angry - because those feelings are an unavoidable part of life. Feelings are a part of the human experience that we came here to learn about - they cannot be avoided. And trying to avoid them only causes us to miss out on the Joy and Love and happiness that can also be a part of the human experience.
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"Sometimes the lights are all shining on me - other times I can barely see - Lately its occurred to me - what a long strange trip its been." Robert Hunter
Pia Mellody's book "Facing Love Addiction" has been by far the most helpful resource for me. But one thing she says troubles me greatly...I welcome any input from the board.
According to her book, it is possible to overcome the core causes and symptoms of love addiction through intensive work and practice. After much work, the author suggests that the love addict (like me) may be able to attract healthy non-addicts with whom to engage in relationships. Here's what troubles me about that statement. I have terrible self esteem issues...the root of my problem. When I read that statement, I automatically think...well, that just proves how worthless I am. Why would a "normal," healthy, non-addicted person want to be in a relationship with a train wreck like me? It seems like a circular, self-defeating statement, and I just can't work through the logic of it.
I gave my boyfriend a copy of the book because I thought it would help him understand me and also better see the role that he plays in our dysfunction as a classic "love avoidant." Typically if I try to talk to him about these issues, he takes it as a personal attack, gets enraged and refuses to look at himself, and then uses my "betrayal" (as he describes it) to pull further away. I thought perhaps he'd be more receptive if the information came from a book. My purpose in sharing the book with him was to strengthen our relationship and open up the lines of communication. But now I'm afraid he's going to read it and it will just reinforce his notion that he is caught up in a relationship with a mentally unstable loser, and that all he needs to do is jettison me and find some "healthy," non-addicted woman, and all will be right in his world. He has an extremely difficult time seeing himself or his behaviors, and he tends to project blame. He thinks that I (or whatever woman he's with at the moment) am the cause of all of the problems. This is why he's 54 and has bounced from relationship to relationship, and grown increasingly more resentful about being "victimized" by various women who he believes want to control him and injure him. When one woman disappoints him, he just moves on to the next, thinking a change of scenery will do the trick, but he stays blind to his own contribution to the destruction of the relationship. One good sign for me...as I progress in my recovery, I am beginning to see this denial of his as very unattractive.
By sending him the book I made myself extremely vulnerable. I knew that I was risking losing him...he may have a breakthrough moment and "see" himself in the book. Or he may use it as yet more validation that I am weak and "less-than," and that he can do better.
I think I did the right thing sharing the book. I think everyone needs some help looking at themselves and self-reflecting...it's a useful tool for doing that. The difficult part for me is just sitting back and (as Pia Mellody says) letting go of the outcome. I can't force him to use the book or to see the same reality that I do when I read it and I fear his judgment of me and the resulting loss of self-esteem. But I have to accept the hard reality that this man may never wake up and that I may lose him as he retreats behind his own walls of denial. I guess that's part of the codependency healing process. But it's hard.
-- Edited by Myopia1964 on Monday 9th of May 2011 08:07:34 AM
-- Edited by Myopia1964 on Monday 9th of May 2011 08:15:32 AM
-- Edited by Myopia1964 on Monday 9th of May 2011 08:16:00 AM
When I first got into recovery I did it to save a relationship. I didn't start seeing any change or improvement in myself until I realized that I had to stop doing recovery for the relationship and start doing it for ME. I had to set him aside. Our relationship, his behavior . . . if I did/do apply "recovery" to our relationship it is MY reaction to our relationship, MY part in it - with no expectation for change from the other side. How are things RIGHT NOW. What is happening RIGHT NOW. And what is MY part. How do I feel about what is coming my direction and what are my reactions? What are my needs? The minute I get into "But he needs to . . . He did . . he should . . . he is . . . I wish he would . . . " I need to reign myself in hard. He is who he is and that either works for me or it doesn't. If he wants to change it has to be of his own doing at his own pace. One can hope that partners like the changes they see in us and want to play along, but that is hope and can not be one of my goals because that leaves room for expectations and resentments. Hope can be beautiful but it can grow into some pretty ugly expectations.
It is a very difficult place to arrive to. When I entered recovery and looked at relationship failure after failure I automatically thought I had to fix the relationship to fix the problem. I have found that I have to fix myself FIRST. That is my primary responsibility. It is the door into fixing the relationship. For me, I had to heal a lot of hurt and deal with a lot of issues within myself that had nothing to do with "relationships". Next I started practicing communications skills and other "partnering" activities. I am still working hard on both but the focus is still on myself and who I am as a single being and how I fit into this relationship.
It takes practice. I still stumble and fall frequently. I would have to say I agree with your assessment of Pia's book. It is an ABSOLUTELY wonderful resource.
When I first got into recovery I did it to save a relationship. I didn't start seeing any change or improvement in myself until I realized that I had to stop doing recovery for the relationship and start doing it for ME. I had to set him aside. Our relationship, his behavior . . . if I did/do apply "recovery" to our relationship it is MY reaction to our relationship, MY part in it - with no expectation for change from the other side. How are things RIGHT NOW. What is happening RIGHT NOW. And what is MY part. How do I feel about what is coming my direction and what are my reactions? What are my needs? The minute I get into "But he needs to . . . He did . . he should . . . he is . . . I wish he would . . . " I need to reign myself in hard. He is who he is and that either works for me or it doesn't. If he wants to change it has to be of his own doing at his own pace. One can hope that partners like the changes they see in us and want to play along, but that is hope and can not be one of my goals because that leaves room for expectations and resentments. Hope can be beautiful but it can grow into some pretty ugly expectations.
It is a very difficult place to arrive to. When I entered recovery and looked at relationship failure after failure I automatically thought I had to fix the relationship to fix the problem. I have found that I have to fix myself FIRST. That is my primary responsibility. It is the door into fixing the relationship. For me, I had to heal a lot of hurt and deal with a lot of issues within myself that had nothing to do with "relationships". Next I started practicing communications skills and other "partnering" activities. I am still working hard on both but the focus is still on myself and who I am as a single being and how I fit into this relationship.
It takes practice. I still stumble and fall frequently. I would have to say I agree with your assessment of Pia's book. It is an ABSOLUTELY wonderful resource.
Linistea
I know you are right about all this. But it is HARD to put into practice. I really love what you said..."hope can be beautiful but it can grow into some pretty ugly expectations." I hadn't thought about that, but you are absolutely right!
What I need to do is work on building self-esteem, but I'm still not sure what that would look like. It seems like I walk around every day feeling lousy about myself. It's just a general, almost palpable feeling I have, and it's as intrinsic to my existence as having sensitive skin or poor eyesight. It's almost a physical sensation and, since I don't know where it originates inside me, I don't know how to change it.
I also need to work on communication. However THAT is a skill I feel more confident about developing.
This is a quick response, so if the aswer is in your previous post, I apologize.
Have you worked the 12 steps?
Not just read them, but REALLY worked them. With a sponsor.
I had no answers on how to help with these exact same issues.
Until I worked the steps.
That . . . was the answer.
And step 1 is critical. I had to surrender completely. Not for saving my relationship(s), but for me, finding happiness and feeling comfortable in my own skin - I had to choose to do this 100%. I had to move forward with a conviction like I had never known. To throw away all my biases, all the old tools, and completely surrender. To be willing to say "I may not be able to fix my problems with the mind that got me here" and just be fully willing to try something new. Working the steps is hard and required an honesty like I have never known - it was really painful for me. It is not easy, but it is simple. The plan is laid out in black and white and if you are truly honest with yourself - then the outcome is well . . . from an extremely logical, not very spiritual agnostic - they are nothing short of miraculous if you really give it your all.
Step 2 forward can be done less than perfect. Mistakes are made. Sometimes only the surface is scratched.
That is how I did it. I only scratched the surface, it was not perfect, but I was in so much pain and turmoil the improvement was drastic. I am in the process of doing them again.
So the answer is really short (if you have not already done it) . . . find a sponsor and work the steps. I have read book after book and was left everytime going "but how do it do it?" Nothing worked until I did the steps. They are the beginning of change.
The "Designated Patient" dynamic in a relationship has brought me to my knees on more then one occasion, for me it has caused more harm then anything else, more pain and suffering.
My introduction to this was, of course, as the designated patient, being in my youth a promiscuous male alcoholic bartender with easy access to my "drug of choice", Wine, women and song...so I finally met a girl "worth changing for" and it's a long story, it took me two years to finally hit my knees and surrender, she of course saying "you need to X, Y and Z in order for the relationship to work", and truth be told, she had some valid points, at that time I didn't belong in a committed relationship, but this is about the follow up...after I did make those changes...
She followed me around for a few years "you need to quit drinking, you need to quit drinking, she'd rage, scream, yell, throw me out, punish me with passive aggressive tactics, in short she made my life a living hell...
So I quit drinking....there was a lull, then she blamed me for the past, so we went to couples counseling, the couples counselor felt there was 2 of us that played a part, not just me, so Margo felt we needed a different couples counselor...so we got one, and THAT couples counselor ALSO felt there was 2 people involved and was actually like "Well Andrew is working a strong program, he has stopped drinking and sleeping around, lets move forward and look at BOTH of you"...so she was fired, since what my GF was looking for wasn't "help" per se, but validation, validation that I was "the problem" that she was only "effed up" because of me...as time went on she found new things for me to change, next it was smoking....then it was "you're a slob, you're a slob" then I became a neat freak, which was easy to do since our house was always spotless, I just made sure to clean up after myself and pitch in a bit, I was sculpting at the time and a seasonal firefighter and paramedic, so "get a job, get a job" was next...so I got ANOTHER full time job...then she decided I needed a career that had a retirement, so pressure was brought to bear for me to go to college, which I did, 25 units, a full time job, 3 part time jobs, and AA meetings.....I was a non drinking, non smoking neat freak and was the exact opposite of who she had got together with, and I did it all for "love"
About then one day she was yelling at me about something, I mean really letting me have it, and I realized NONE of this had anything to do with her, the happier and healthier I had gotten, the more miserable and insane she had gotten, she HATED my jobs, the fact I went to college, the fact I was on TV a few times a year doing helicopter cliff rescues, she hated my car, she hated my new place I had gotten on the advice of our therapist, she hated EVERYTHING about me...the truth was it was easier for her to make me the designated patient when I was drinking...so she's yelling at me one day and I realized it had nothing to do with me...I had made all the changes she wanted and she was falling apart, and I told her that, I said I am DONE making changes for you, and I walked away with her on her knees sobbing helplessly
I watched this dynamic play out again and again over the years with my sponsees and their GF's, the GF would drag my sponsee to couples counseling, the therapist suggested there was 2 people in a codependent relationship, and the GF would come un-glued because she didn't want help, she wanted validation....
Now this would be a great story if it ended here, and I could walk off wearing my white hat and pat myself on the back for my vast wisdom and recovery, but that's not how life is...after maybe ten years later I got in a relationship with someone who I thought needed to make some changes, she was loving, intelligent, sexy, smart, a great mother, she just needed....a few tweaks...and I was just the one to help her...she had great....wait for it........potential....which is what people had always dated me for, my potential
I got sicker then I have ever been in my life during that relationship, there was stuff going on with my family life as well, but in between those I was brought to my knees, so eventually we broke up for the last time, the ENTIRE time we had been together I had tried to convince her "If you could just see things from MY perspective, we'd be OK, if you could just make some changes we'd be alright" but the truth was all I was doing was making her worse, I was taking away her self esteem, her self reliance, I wasn't making her better, I was making her sicker, now the truth is she DID need to make some changes, but the way I went about it made her sicker, not better, and SHE needed to make those changes for HERSELF, I didn't need to make them for her...
So I suggested she go to alanon, or a therapist, like "go to a therapist or alanon or I'm leaving you" you know, one of those things we call "boundaries" but are really behavior modification, and I got all up in her program, I mean at first I was helpful, taking her to meetings and holding her hand, I'm a great guy right? but soon, like within 10 days or so I came to the conclusion she wasn't changing fast enough, she wasn't working a very good program, we started arguing about the program, oh god it was a mess...
I had made her the designated patient
OH jesus
SO we take a year off from each other, give ir take, and she HITS the books, and meetings, and works the steps with a sponsor, and we got back together...and the hardest thing I have ever had to try and do in my life was allow her to be somebody different...it's harder then quitting smoking, it's harder then quitting drinking, because in codependency, in the "designated patient" dynamic, it's somebody else's fault I feel the way I do....
Letting that go has been incredibly painful, it's horrible, my mind screams louder in that then it EVER did for a drink, IT'S YOUR FAULT I FEEL THIS WAY, IF YOU WOULD JUST CHANGE I'D BE OK!!!!!"
Well, sadly, I learned that's just not the case, not in my girlfriends when I changed, not in any of my sponsees when they got sober, and not in me when my GF went into recovery...the truth is in every case -we got sicker- because our drug stopped working
As long as I can blame someone else for how I feel and behave, my drug of choice, fingerpointing and blame, is working, because then I don't have to face myself, and when I do it's in the form of shame and guilt and blaming myself, which is just "more of the same", it's the same spotlight I have been putting on her and shining on myself, it's the "dis-ease" not the recovery from my disease
I needed to work the steps with a sponsor to get help, not talk about the steps, not share in a meeting, not read helpful books, or write on the internet or go to my support group, I had to follow instruction and sit down and work steps one - three, and then get to my moral inventory and write down all my resentments
that was fun....BASTAR*SSSSSSSS, it's all their fault, then I got to write down which part of self was injured by these people....oh wait, there was a last column...what was my part...
In every single case without exception I got to see I was doing exactly to others what I was accusing them of doing to me, that they, LIKE ME, were sick people just doing the best they could
the rest of my experience I think I could just quote Linistea verbatim....
I have to take MY inventory, NOT the other persons, any time I have seen a relationship based on one partner needing the other partner to change, I have seen excruciating pain, and it never ends well.....ever
Be the change you want to see in the world
Mahatmas Ghandi
__________________
it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
Wow LinBaba...once again I am humbled and made speechless by your raw insight. Thanks and ...ouch! My boyfriend has his issues, but I honestly wish I hadn't pushed him to change so much over the years. It's made things so much worse. The funny thing is, as you mentioned, the healthier and saner I've become, the more enraged he seems to become with me. I think it's a combination of "too little too late" and a lack of trust on his part. He just doesn't trust that I'm not doing something to try to manipulate him...understandably. Everytime I reach out to him to share what I've learned, he assumes I'm using it to control him. So I've decided to stop contacting him. He needs to know that I am detaching and that he is safe. Honestly, it's excrutiating and I wish it were different, but I have to do that. I can only hope that he and I can reconnect in a year like you and your GF, but I even have to let go of that expectation or it will set me up for disappointment as well. God this is hard.
I have not yet worked the steps with a sponsor...just done a lot of reading and counseling and sharing online. It's taken me a while to get up the courage to go to an actual meeting. I'm going to an ACOA meeting this Thursday night.
wow! all I can say is, where/how do I go about finding a sponsor? I can so relate to being attracted to unavailable men! I can so relate to a lot of things that were shared in the posts..so again I say, where do I find a sponsor?
Normally folks get a sponsor at the 12 step meetings of their choice - CoDA, AA, Al-Anon etc. It is recommended to find someone who "has what you want" . . . Now when I first got into the program that was someone just like me. Same gender, same age - let's boost things up a bit and find someone more successful (monetarily) than me - in good shape physically, dressed nice . . . all the outside stuff. After a while in recovery I learned that some folks' insides didn't match their outsides and they didn't really have what I wanted. I wanted peace. I wanted compassion. I wanted someone who was comfortable in their skin. I didn't want a program Nazi who had to have it their way or now way, but offered their experience and guidance with humility and love. I didn't want someone who talked a good program but didn't live one. I had asked around a lot, and during one of these times an older man said he would sponsor me. Now it is highly recommended that the men stick with the men, and the women with the women . . . (rightfully so) so I said I would think about it. I decided to work with him and it was the best decision I ever made. He was kind and gentle, open and caring, shared his heart, experience, strength and hope. He believed in me, but didn't let me pull any crap. To this day I have never seen a better program - well except maybe virtually through Jerry F on the Al-Anon and AA sites. This man lived the 10th, 11th, and 12th steps. He was a pastor and got into the ministry because of AA, this is how he found his faith. 30+ years of sobriety, but even more important, 30+ years of living a good, clean, strong program.
I had asked others to sponsor me, and that is all it takes. You listen to someone's shares over several meetings and see if they have what you want and simply walk up and ask. They may say no. The reasons don't matter, it is ok. You ask someone else.
I hope that helps. Just my narrow view into finding a sponsor and what it was like for me.
