Thanks for sharing, this brings back familiar memories for me. Keep working the program.

"intermittent reinforcement." That does sum the relationship up. The problem is when we are desperate for validation and external approval, intermittent reinforcement feels a lot better than no reinforcement. When he was there he was so encouraging, and warm and wonderful, that it almost seemed worth the times that he wasn't there. In fact it might have been ok for a bit, if not for the craziness it triggers in my brain-the desperate need for more. I needed to know that he was really there, which honestly he was not going to be.
I've been working out, by swimming laps, and I used to text him after to tell him how many laps I did and he would applaud me, and tell me how amazing it was. Last night I went swimming and felt bummed out because no one else really cares how many laps I do. I did 100, which was the most I have done in quite a while, and I couldn't resist the urge to text him about it. I thought he would ignore it, or else tell me that he didn't want to hear from me but instead he texted me back that it was totally awesome, and now I'm filled again with his imaginary love, pretending that he cares, and holding on to the warm and fuzzy feeling, even though I know it is not based on fact. It's better than the pain of rejection. But it makes me feel pretty pathetic. I drank a slim shake this morning, which I know he would have applauded, and enjoyed his imaginary applause. At least I had the self respect not to text him about it.

Your gut's telling you what it all means so you are correct listening to it. You are both still somewhat emotionally immature and that's why you both horsed the intensity right at first. It felt so good to both of you.
That doesn't mean it could never be a relationship, but it would mean it would be a difficult one dealing with those levels of attraction and feel good dynamics. Both are likely to get hurt and cause each other pain. But adults can learn too and make lemonade out of a mess.
Life and relationships are not always easy.
Give yourself a break. Get back to your CoDA meetings and do something constructive so you become focused on your life and self again and allow things to unfold.

So grateful, for your thought out reply, and also grateful for this forum to write about and help me clarify my feelings.

The things that alert me about this guy, and why I think it is not heading in a safe place.

A. I have gotten a sense from him early on, that he is not completely available. I knew he had no plans to come to see me. I had a gut feeling the second I asked pressured him to arrange to see me, he would dump me. I sensed him drawing back, and calling me less after the initial phase of "bliss,"  which is what triggered my fear of abandonment. This was confirmed when he dumped me saying honestly that he is not completely available.

B. There are things I have gotten glimpses of that set off red flags. For instance he told me at one point about his elaborate plans for the kids on spring break, and later he told me his ex-wife had the kids for spring break, and it turned out she was doing what he initially told me he was doing. He also made some mention of his past addictions, which he reassured me was a thing of the past.

C. He is much older than me. I'm afraid what passes off now as taking care of me will morph into controlling me. I've seen brief moments of this, where he tells me what to do, and I comply because right now it feels nice. I told him I needed to lose weight, and he told me what diet I should go on, and followed up to find out if I was doing it. I liked the encouragement, but in the wrong context it could change into controlling me. When we met on vacation, he told exactly where to stand, and how to pose for photos. Sometimes it sounded more like a command than a suggestion, andthat side of him made me very concerned. 

D. when breaking up with me, he said his life was complicated, and he had hoped to bring in someone less complicated to help him manage his life.

E.  He has made comments about financial concerns, and debts. He indicated he has had issues with overspending. He is working on a new business venture, but although he has not mentioned it, I suspect many of his past ventures have failed. Of course it could just be bad luck, but based on past experiences I've found that guys with multiple failed jobs, often contributed to it in some way.

F. He has moved around a lot. Living in at least 5 different places in the last 20 years.

G. Most of our conversations are spent with him asking me questions and him trying to find out more about me. While I really enjoy this, and I love his interest in everything I'm doing, I suspect he is trying to keep the focus away from himself. I'm also concerned this is creating an unbalanced relationship. I've shared with him a lot more than he is sharing with me. Yet his attention to the details of my life, is one of the things that is making me really like him. It feels to me like someone is really interested in me, but is it just a ploy to draw me in, and keep attention away from himself.

So with all of these red flags why do I want him. I absolutely love his attention. He is constantly saying things that make me feel important. We are both very attracted to each other. I have not felt this kind of chemistry in years. Often I can just close my eyes and imagine his hands on me, and I feel transported to a place that I thought I was too old to ever be again. He listens to the things I say, and validates them, and asks further relevant questions. For instance he asked me if I ever though about being a lawyer like my father, when I said no, he asked if it was because my father died young, that made me feel afraid to follow in his footsteps. It showed he listened and thought about the things I said. I feel like he is protective of me. He wants to take care of me. He provided an encouraging voice to everything I was working on. Like my swimming. He would always want to know how many laps I did, or details of the art projects I was working on. He claims to be a good father to his kids. He claims to be dedicated to them, and to care and worry about them. He claims that he needs to put them first, and that's one of the reasons he is not completely available. He also claims to be a really hard worker. I know he gets up incredibly early, and his days seem to be full of productivity. 

I think he would be quite happy to have me as a friend...possibly with benefits. I think he went into the relationship wanting nothing more. The problem is that is just not enough for me. I see the future. I see myself forever chasing, while he gives me just enough "intermittent reinforcement" to keep me involved. So it seems smart to get out now, before I get hurt any more. 

But Oh, how I miss him. 

Permalink Reply Quote  More

"C. He is much older than me. I'm afraid what passes off now as taking care of me will morph into controlling me. I've seen brief moments of this, where he tells me what to do, and I comply because right now it feels nice. I told him I needed to lose weight, and he told me what diet I should go on, and followed up to find out if I was doing it. I liked the encouragement, but in the wrong context it could change into controlling me. When we met on vacation, he told exactly where to stand, and how to pose for photos. Sometimes it sounded more like a command than a suggestion, and that side of him made me very concerned.
"For instance he told me at one point about his elaborate plans for the kids on spring break, and later he told me his ex-wife had the kids for spring break, and it turned out she was doing what he initially told me he was doing. He also made some mention of his past addictions, which he reassured me was a thing of the past."
E. He has made comments about financial concerns, and debts. He indicated he has had issues with overspending. He is working on a new business venture, but although he has not mentioned it, I suspect many of his past ventures have failed. Of course it could just be bad luck, but based on past experiences I've found that guys with multiple failed jobs, often contributed to it in some way.
G. Most of our conversations are spent with him asking me questions and him trying to find out more about me. While I really enjoy this, and I love his interest in everything I'm doing, I suspect he is trying to keep the focus away from himself. I'm also concerned this is creating an unbalanced relationship. I've shared with him a lot more than he is sharing with me. Yet his attention to the details of my life, is one of the things that is making me really like him. It feels to me like someone is really interested in me, but is it just a ploy to draw me in, and keep attention away from himself.

More like trying to get info to use to manipulate you.

So with all of these red flags why do I want him. I absolutely love his attention. He is constantly saying things that make me feel important.

This is why. You ARE important, you do not need anyone to verify. 

We are both very attracted to each other. I have not felt this kind of chemistry in years. Often I can just close my eyes and imagine his hands on me, and I feel transported to a place that I thought I was too old to ever be again. He listens to the things I say, and validates them, and asks further relevant questions. For instance he asked me if I ever though about being a lawyer like my father, when I said no, he asked if it was because my father died young, that made me feel afraid to follow in his footsteps. It showed he listened and thought about the things I said. I feel like he is protective of me. He wants to take care of me. He provided an encouraging voice to everything I was working on. Like my swimming. He would always want to know how many laps I did, or details of the art projects I was working on. He claims to be a good father to his kids. He claims to be dedicated to them, and to care and worry about them. He claims that he needs to put them first, and that's one of the reasons he is not completely available. He also claims to be a really hard worker. I know he gets up incredibly early, and his days seem to be full of productivity. "



Whoa, I'm not liking it. 
These are more than little red flags.

It's not like you have not been taking care of yourself all this time and doing it well. You do not need someone much older, you want a partner, not a daddy.
You've done a lot of work on yourself. Maybe not CoDA work specifically, but you are an adult.
Look around for someone who meets the qualifications you have done for yourself.
You do not need a soulmate, get rid of the fantasy. Having a real partner that has your back is what we all need and want, not someone who takes care of us. That 'care' becomes control real fast.

Codependents need to be on the lookout constantly for those who feel like a soulmate. Who is good for you will feel boring at first. Get back to CoDA PRONTO. Tons of women there who have been through the same thing and will help you through it. Last thing you need right now is to be isolated, you're dang right this is going too fast.

-- Edited by barelythere on Thursday 23rd of March 2017 10:13:43 PM

You are right in what you are saying. I know all this logically. I knew instantly from the intense feelings, to the red flags that this was a bad idea. It smelled to me like an unhealthy relationship, But I did it anyway cuz it felt so good. Like drugs when you've been sober a long time. I know it was for the best that we broke up. But he did make me aware that I had a big void that needs to be filled. As I said I know its stupid, that i miss him. He screwed me over, pretending that he was interested in a committed relationship, and then later saying he didn't have "space" in his life for this. What I am saying is the pain is real and valid, even if the situation doesn't warrent it. As for friends and family, I met him while traveling, and we haven't met again, so while I've mentioned him, no one else who cares ever met him. We were introduced, by some acquaintances that I stayed with for a couple of days. They set us up on a blind date, and I was more or less alone in a strange city, and didn't mind going out to dinner. I ended up changing my plans and spending another 2 days hanging out with him, and it was the best time I had in a really long time. What I've realized I need to reconnect with the CODA crowd who knows what I feel like, so that I can stay strong, and grow from this, and not find myself running back to the fire to fill the void.

The pain is real. Too real. As for "daddy issues," my problem too.
Your powers of reasoning are excellent and adult, we as codependents need to have our hearts catch up to our heads, or is it the other way around?
We can get carried away, we have had so much grief and too little love.
No shame in looking around again. you obviously have a lot to offer a man.
Choose the best for yourself. I know you will, you are already doing so.
Take it easy on yourself.
God Bless.

I hear you. Listening, and communication in general is becoming a lost art.
Are we becoming sound and hear bites?
It is getting more and more superficial. Sometimes you wonder, hey am I even here?
And as codependents we can feel 'invisible' anyway.

And I don't know that he did not care for you on any level. Neither do you.
I don't like his issues, it doesn't look good. But you know that. You pointed them out.
You were not a sucker. You were thinking with your heart and need.
We get ahead of ourselves.
Slow and steady. 

You are right that he pegged out on you. I don't like that he didn't want anything 'complicated' after the fact. Responsibility and commitment are always complicated. 

-- Edited by barelythere on Friday 24th of March 2017 03:53:16 AM

Thanks for both of your thoughts. Writing about this, and hearing a bit of feedback, is helping to draw me out of the intensity, and keep perspective. Most important it keeps me from throwing myself back into the twister.
A number of my friends were so excited to hear that I was interested in someone, that they wanted to convince me that there was nothing wrong with him.
I've been trying to date for about the last five years, but I haven't liked anyone much, and i was starting to believe that there was something wrong with me. I was sort of excited to see my hormones still work.
In the past 5 years there were only 2 guys that I had relationships that lasted more than a couple of weeks. I met one guy that I enjoyed talking to, he was a big 12 stepper which I thought was good, but he kept using the 12 steps to put himself first. I.E. i can't drive you home, because i need to take care of myself. or I'm having some "me" time can I talk to you later. I felt like he consistently put his needs before mine, and labeled it " being healthy". It finally came to a head when I told him I really needed to spend some quality time with him on the weekend, and he really wanted to take me to a family barbeque (which I felt uncomfortable going to). We agreed to do something together, and then go to barbeque. Instead he showed up late, and took me to his barbeque. I told him i was upset, but he didn't see anything wrong with it. He told me if I had a problem with him meeting his needs, then I wasn't going to fit in his life.
Guy 2 was a really good guy. I think he had a heart of gold, and was genuinely a good person. We dated for a few months. The problem was I wasn't at all attracted to him. He was as unsexy as you could get. He was a bachelor, and just very used to everything being a certain way. structure, routine. etc. I didn't feel he liked me for who i was, but more like he wanted to stuff me into his mold of what he thought a woman should be. I often felt like he didn't see what was special about me, but just tried to pretend that i was the sort of woman he envisioned himself with. With all my reading on co dependence, I was convinced that this was the sort of slow and steady of a healthy relationship. No rush of feelings. But sort of comfortable together. When he suggested moving things to the next level, i physically could not do it. I felt like he was going to trap me in a cage, for a life that outside looked sort of ok, and inside felt totally miserable. For a while I thought there was something wrong with me for giving up this "great opportunity", but my heart in this case saw what my mind did not. Tragically this guy had a massive stroke, and is currently partially paralyzed. i feel grateful, that I didn't settle down to a life with a guy that i didn't love, only to find myself taking care of him.

So that is why this rush of feelings were so exciting. I felt alive and young again, even if part of me knew what was really going on. It was so long since I felt any of it. the good or the bad. The headiness. The rush of desire. waiting for his calls, so I could tell him everything on my mind. It was so big that part of me was ready to throw caution to the wind, just to live again. I am grateful that I was quickly reminded of the big price tag attached.

Thank you both for listening, and for your support and feedback

You'll learn when you've had enough of the misery of things not working out because they are not real.
Boring does not mean boring-boring.
It means "not like a drug"

The CoDA blue book states fantasy is for those who can't handle drugs! LOL
Yup.

One day at a time. That's all I can do myself.
I actually like it that way.

We're looking for the balanced here.
Life can be unexciting because it has responsibilities; none of us can get out of that. A real partner is there through that, not only the good times. It's an ongoing exchange. Not just about them or you.
Boring in the sense of too few attractive qualities, heck no.
It's when attraction is a fix for excitement's sake or to feel better about ourselves and not kept in context.

My husband was a fox when we were young stupid kids having big ideas we should be married. Some so-called girlfriends of mine came on to him and then TOLD me he turned them down, yes, they actually did that! (had to laugh he turned them down).
Years later he wasn't as pretty I guess, me either. To me, he was beautiful because of all we had been through growing up and older together and all the ways he had showed up for me over the years and ALWAYS would be. It was not just his physical appeal anymore.
Our marriage was not perfect. Sometimes it could be bad, sometimes very steady. It ebbed and flowed. Marriage and romantic relationships can be difficult because people expect magic and what they get is two often unmagical people.

Everyone decides what the balance is in these things. The point is not to find yourself somewhere you didn't consciously choose or have a direct say in.
If you need someone to take control of your life rather than you and your Higher Power who is there for you, believe me, there are those ready to do that and would like nothing more than to do that. This is not good.

Unmanageability does not mean no control over your life (even if we are deluded about what control we actually have, we think so and should think so). It means things are not working so it's about finding better ways FOR YOU to try to realize your dreams to the best of your ability.
I doubt your dreams are boring.

-- Edited by barelythere on Friday 24th of March 2017 09:18:28 PM

I will not call or text him no matted what. This really is like withdrawal from a drug. I've verbalized the thousand and one reasons why there is nothing good about this relationship. But its a drug. It will make me high. It will numb some of the pain I feel now. I will pretend for a bit that there is someone that really loves me and it will make everything good..... But I won't do it. I really won't....... It will hurt now, but it will be OK.

Sometimes I feel like our childhoods almost "doom" us for life. Unless we are constantly working at it we are almost doomed to make the same mistakes.

My childhood is complicated, but has left scars on me. My mom was a single mom, and tried her best. She has made and continues to make mistakes that hurt me every day. My brother came out much more noticeably scarred. I'm the one that always seems to have it together and to manage, except inside at times I'm bleeding to death.

BTW I sent you a personal message if you want to correspond off the public board.

This is my very first post on this message board, but I identify so strongly with the feelings you describe, as well as that intense longing that something as small as validation via text message can bring.  I read "Codependent No More" almost a year ago and found it helped me immensely, but you're right in that the old feelings and habits do have a way of creeping back in, and before you know it, you're afraid and unhappy again.  I'm hoping that, wherever you are in your life now, you're feeling stronger again.