Freya wrote:

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The thing is, the more I stay out of my partner's stuff, the more it feels like I'm getting pulled into being involved in it.  It feels almost as if I'm being challenged to do what I did in the past, and the more I'm not doing it the more it feels like I'm being challenged to behave the way I did in the past.  I don't know if it's me making myself feel the pull or if he is contributing to that by saying and doing things that feel challenging.  I'm confused about that.  

A couple of times I've had to take myself to the toilet while we're out so that I can practically gnaw on my fist so that I don't get into his stuff and say something I'll regret.  As fast as I'm not reacting, it feels as if there's another comment or situation out there to see if it will trigger me.  I'm unsure how much of that is my stuff and how much is him contributing to that.

Today I wasn't able to get to the toilet fast enough and opened my mouth and asked him to do something differently than he'd done it.  I was polite.  I didn't shout.  I just felt the really strong need to set a boundary for myself by asking him if he could do something differently.

This was then perceived as me controlling.   

Today I had really uncomfortable feelings around changes my partner made to arrangements we had made together without asking me how I felt about the changes before he made them.  When I tried to communicate with my partner about my feelings I went straight into asking him to do it differently rather than telling him how I felt.  I was perceived as being controlling, and he had a very strong negative reaction to what I said.   I felt ambushed.  He felt controlled. It did not go well.

So rather than obsess about this for hours, give myself a hard time, and generally berate myself for not doing it better, I thought I'd come here and share about the progress I'm making and ask for a bit of ESH regarding not reacting/setting appropriate boundaries.

I guess what I'm saying in a very long-winded way is I find it very hard to be assertive, and a situation came up where I felt I really wanted to be assertive but probably wasn't, and instead of saying how I felt, I asked them to change their behaviour and the situation then became a reason for the other person to blame me and judge me as being controlling, without understanding how hard I was finding it to be assertive. I'm really confused about when to not react and when to be assertive.  So far I've gone with not reacting.  Today when I tried to be assertive it wasn't received well even though I tried really hard to  not be manipulative.  The reaction I received felt very disproportionate to what I had said.  

Thanks for letting me share.  I'm so confused about how to deal with uncomfortable feelings and taking responsibility for them while at the same time trying to set a boundary without going into behaviour modification.  I think today I skipped the talking about my feelings and went straight into behaviour modification without realising it.  Any ESH on this would be very much appreciated and heard.

Freya 

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 First of all congratulations on your progress, I recognize myself in all of your share

Secondly, what I say to myself and my sponsees, because it's wise, true and gentle, is something I have heard around the rooms for a long time, we didn't get sick or wreck our lives or our relationships overnight, so we don't get better over night either, there is a massive amount of progress in your share, and if I were to look at your share as mine, which it could be, because it has been over the last few years in my relationship, I'd say to myself, "OK, I made progress here, here and here, and need to utilize different tools here and here", no hammer, no self abasement, that is part of the problem, not the solution

No beating myself up, just "that didn't go well, what can I do differently?"

In the past in my relationship I have done what is called "shoulding" to my Girlfriend, as in "you should do this" and the response has been pretty severe and pretty negative, now I have dressed this up in different ways so I didn't recognize the behavior until I saw her adverse reaction then inventoried it, but if I take -her- inventory (she should have responded differently, I was setting a boundary or being assertive blah blah) somehow I don't come to resolution, just resentment because she didn't "behave" but if I take a step back and TRULY inventory the situation I realize I "shoulded" her, which is shaming, manipulative, and controlling, no matter HOW I dressed it up, which is why she responded the way she did, does that make sense?

If I tell her she -should- do something differently, I am saying she is doing something wrong, I am belittling her, her accomplishments, her worth as a human being, so of course she reacts strongly, especially if we have a history around this issue, I am pushing a sore button, and I don't get to be angry at my girl if I push a button I hurt in the first place and she gets "defensive", that is a natural human reaction to protect ourselves from pain, and "hurt people hurt people" so if I hurt her, she might lash out and hurt me back

So yeah, sticking to communication of emotions is the key for me, and this is where it gets tricky for me, the "I feel" statements aren't necessarily a "get out of jail free" card, like I feel like you were an @$$hole or I feel you did this wrong or you could do this better isn't really what this scenario was designed for, simply, "when you do this, I feel this emotion, doesn't make you wrong, doesn't make you bad, let's see if we can muddle through this and take an inventory here together to navigate this, maybe I need to change, maybe we could come to a compromise, but -not- -you need to change this behavior-, because that isn't assertive, that is aggressive, assertive, to me is, "when you do this, I feel this", or assertiveness can be setting a boundary, "if you _____, I will______"

For example, purely conjectural, If you belittle me, I will leave

So you learned something, you have made changes and "shoulding" and behavioral modifications get a severe reaction, great, put those in your toolbox and they become assets, when I do that and come to the realization I "shoulded" my girlfriend, and then we had a fight about her reaction to my "shoulding" I make an "amends" and an apology, I call her and say, "Hey, I realize I approached this wrong, and I shoulded you when I meant to say -blah blah- and I am very sorry, I was wrong, and I will pay extra attention in the future to not do that again, now they -key- is the next few minutes in the conversation, chances are she might be angry since I pushed a sore spot with her, and she might have a few things to say about how SHE feels about what happened

I -LISTEN-, and -REFLECT- back what she says and under no circumstances do I -DEFEND-, instead I -VALIDATE- how she feels, this is the crux for me, I defend, we lose, and this can be really HARD, but listen and allow her her feelings because I am the one who hurt her, no matter how -good- my intentions dressed themselves up to be

I hope that all makes sense, but I don't get to take her inventory and talk about how she angry she gets when I am the one who hurt her in the first place, it's my job to keep my side of street clean and clean up the messes I make, and when we -both- do that, it happens a lot less and these conversations are a lot less emotionally charged, and when time passes, and she or I say something "shoulding" or along those lines and she or I can say right then, "Hey, that feels controlling" We can pause.....then go wow, it was, I'm really sorry, and what used to take days of anguish, and even used to lead to horrific fights and break ups, now can be resolved in about 15 seconds, if communication occurs -right then-

What -used- to cause awful fights and break ups now seem to be resolved in hours, and the stuff that used to cause fights that lasted days, now are resolved in minutes as we both practice this together

Trick for me is to leave all that emotionally charged **** at the door and not take her inventory but my own

This to me is when the program shows it's "true colors" though, I DO have quite a bit of experience with this, "shoulding" and not realizing it, so I "Grid" it, or run it through the steps

What was my part in this?

1 I AM powerless over this person but I notice when I throw poop, firecrackers and try to control them I get a pretty big non productive emotional response that requires more tenth steps to clean up

2 That's insanity to keep doing that, I need to try something different

3 <looks up at the sky> OK dad, I F'd up again, I don't want this, here you handle this cause I'm doing a piss poor job

4 hmm, OK, here I dumped my -stuff- on her, and here I shoulded her (I am specific), here were the parts of self that were affected, here is what "my part" was

5 I talk to another person (just like you did here) and find out "the exact nature of my wrong"

6 I become willing to have it removed

7 I ask to have it removed, as in humbly say please please take this away it hurts me AND this other person I don't want this any more

8 I check and see who I have harmed, it's on step 4 under who I have the resentment against

9 I make a direct amend, I tell on myself to this person and come clean, I apologize, and I work on the amends actually not doing this any more

It takes much longer to write it out here then it does to actually do it, and it gets easier and faster, until with many character defects I notice I can bust myself either right before, during, or right after, while the mess is still pretty small, but I remember they call it "practice" for a reason, it's difficult at first, easier as time goes on, then becomes a working portion of my day

then I try to pass this stuff on, because that is the beauty of this thing, I am watching them, listening to them and I have "light bulb" moments, what I can't see in myself I can easily see in others, then I realize, "Hey!!! I do that too!!!" and then I can run it through the grid, and clean up the mess

I'm not saying I am perfect by any means, or even very good, but I am saying these are the tools I use ya know?

Trust God

Clean House

Help others

easy peasy

Freya, I love you & I love the way you do your homework. You are a joy to watch.

I want to add something to our 'honest, real & true' ditty. When I said I was going to & wanted to stand for something, the precursor to that statement was 'I will stand for the COURAGE to be honest, real & true. Crucial to deal with what we/you are going through. I hear your trepidation around getting vulnerable & I want to remind you that's why now it's so amazing, beautiful, lovely to know that with our God or our Higher Power we really are not alone. Having our program & the God of our own understanding means that we can feel the fear & do it anyway. So, instead of '**** Everything And Run' we can instead 'Face Everything And Recover'.

You said you're meeting with your Sponsor soon to work through 8/9. Great stuff. You are well on your way. Seeing as how you've had a thorough first experience of steps 6/7 I'll introduce you to the 7th Step prayer of AA. I use it daily & can see how you can be ready to use it for a deeper experience of your program today too. It may help you in those moments when you know you're facing a challenge &/or a new opportunity for 'doing things differently'.

"My Creator, I am now willing that You shall have All of me, Good & Bad. I am now willing for You to remove my defects of character & All that stands in the way of My usefulness to You & My Fellows. Lord, Grant Me Strength as I go out from here to do Your bidding.. Thy will Not mine be done."

Freya, you are awesome. I admire you & I'm proud of you. I marvel at the miracle in progress you are. Witnessing you teaches me so much. Thank you for sharing your recovery here. You are a wonderful message & a fantastic example of living in the solution even with, as you say, your baby legs. When you feel strong & sure, you'll be reflecting upon all of this & sharing with others who are struggling as our newcomers see & follow in your footsteps. Thank you for shining out & showing us how this works.

Love & Flowership, lilmzx

Freya wrote:

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Thanks Linbaba. That's a tool I can work with. I appreciate your ESH. I've written the grid out so that I can work through it on paper with some situations that have been really bothering me and where I haven't been able to work out my part in it. Starting with yesterday and my "shoulding".

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 "The Grid" is actually the 12 steps, and what I wrote out was my own hillbilly version of what takes place in my head when I run stuff through the grid, specifically step 10, which is continue to take personal inventory and when I am wrong promptly admit it, I personally do step 10 by doing a very fast steps 1-9 in my head, although I write when something is recurring or troublesome, but what I wrote out as "The Grid" is the mental process I personally take when doing step 10, 1 surrender, 2 restoration to sanity, 3 letting go of illusion of control, 4 itemize, 5 identify etc etc

The best explanation of -why- we do the steps is here

Joe and Charley actually explain this stuff far better then me, if you look google "Joe and Charley step study" they have sites you can listen to their step studies, Joe also wrote a book called *Carry The Message I think it's called that also explains how we do the steps for maximum efficiency, and why it's important to do the fourth step in a column format, the last column being what was my part?

I found it was crucial, indispensible even to do the steps more then once with different sponsors, and I also found my program was woefully incomplete until I did a Joe and Charley seminar which can be found here

Although this is AA, this is "The Elephant", The Original, from whence all other 12 step programs come from, anyone we study such as Melody Beatty or The Coda Program itself worked from this information, so by studying "The Original" I have found my understanding of this process and the effectiveness increased 100 fold, in all my times in working the steps with sponsees, even with 5 years of sobriety I was working with guys with 15-17 years of sobreity and they'd tell me 'this is the first time working the steps made sense" and all I was doing was repeating the stuff I had learned from Joe and Charley

Here is one example of say a worksheet that would go along with a step study workshop, but I think the best way to thoroughly understand the steps and how they work and how to work them is to go to "The Masters", the original, which Bill wrote, and which Joe and Charley explain so very very well, they make sense out of it all, I really really recomend listening to them and doing the steps along with them, I did that a few times and it's nothing short of amazing because for the first time what we are doing makes sense

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"List of Resentments" a.k.a "Grudge List." from BBp65

 I’m resentful at: (ref. p.65 example)
The Cause: (ref. p.65 example)

Affects my: Keep Columns 1 & 2 in mind while writing the 3rd Column considerations

Look at the 3rd Column and consider the opposite of each sentence to let the inventory reveal your fears behind each of the seven areas of self.

SELF ESTEEM: How I see or feel about myself. “The role I’ve assigned myself” Fear of being...
Start sentences with—"I am... Example: I am the best husband she could have. ( not good enough )

PRIDE: How I think others see me or feel about me. “The role I’ve assigned others”

AMBITION: What I wanted to happen here. Start sentences with— “I want..."

SECURITY: What I need here to be okay. Start sentences with— “I need..."

PERSONAL RELATIONS: My deep seated beliefs of how this relationship is supposed to look.
(“Wives trust their husbands” “Mothers respect their sons choices” “Real friends always agree with me”)

SEX RELATIONS: My deep-seated beliefs

POCKET BOOK: Affects my finances.

Referring to our list again. Putting out of our minds the wrongs others had done, we resolutely looked for our own mistakes. Where had we been selfish, dishonest, self-seeking and frightened? Though a situation had not been entirely our fault, we tr ied to disregard the other person involved entirely. Where were we to blame? The inventory was ours, not the other man's. When we saw our faults we listed them. We placed them before us in black and white. We admitted our wrongs honestly and were willing to set these matters straight.

(Note, in the 12&12, BillW divided security (BBp65) into Material and Emotional.)

Every Big Book sentence about step 4 offers guidance on thinhg and acting to overcome the suffering of resentments. The 4th step prayer paragraph is thought by my friends as particularly important to contemplate each time we ponder a newly written description of a resentment.   Big Book page 66 : It is appears on the path to the analysis and growth directions.

4th step prayer.

So far, we have described the resentment. We frequently contemplate the 4th step prayer. Next is a structured analysis of the description. We learn how to perceive and treat defects in thinking and acting that contributed to the episode.

As 4th and 5th steppers learn how to research "sane ideals" and to spot "flaws which block us", gradually they become freed of underlying causes of addictions and undesired types of dependence.Next is an example of a "Turnaround" - a name created by the Hyannis BBSS groups for the analysis of each "Affects my" from the resentment description.     
From the BB p67, Where had we been.....   

"FEARS"  from BBp67 -- write in notebook section 3

Of what specifically, were we afraid ?

As we write the Fears in the preceeding section, AA's Big Book suggests the "Fear Prayer" BB p 68.

In the 3rd section of our notebook, we set aside 2 pages to list the general natures of recurring fears from the previous sections. We add known fears which did not relate to resentments.

After the 2 pages above in section 3, we answer BBp68 questions for each fear on one page each.

-Sex Inventory

Part four <> "Now about sex." from BBp68 - write in Notebook section 4

In section 4 of our 5 section notebook , some of us answer questions on Big Book page 68-70 3rd ed and the 12&12 page 119 for each episode.

"In this way (above writing) we tried to shape a sane and sound ideal for our future sex life.
- We subjected each relation to this test -was it selfish or not?
- We asked God to mold our ideals and help us to live up to them.
- We remembered always that our sex powers were God-given and therefore good, neither to be used lightly or selfishly nor to be despised and loathed.

Whatever our ideal turns out to be, we must be willing to grow toward it.

-We must be willing to make amends where we have done harm, provided that we do not bring about still more harm in so doing. In other words, we treat sex as we would any other problem.
- In meditation, we ask God what we should do about each specific matter. The right answer will come, if we want it.

    God alone can judge our sex situation. Counsel with persons is often desirable, but we let God be the final judge. We realize that some people are as fanatical about sex as others are loose. We avoid hysterical thinking or advice.

    Suppose we fall short of the chosen ideal and stumble? Does this mean we are going to get drunk. Some people tell us so. But this is only a half-truth. It depends on us and on our motives. If we are sorry for what we have done, and have the honest desire to let God take us to better things, we believe we will be forgiven and will have learned our lesson. If we are not sorry, and our conduct continues to harm others, we are quite sure to drink. We are not theorizing. These are facts out of our experience.

    To sum up about sex: We earnestly pray for the right ideal, for guidance in each questionable situation, for sanity, and for the strength to do the right thing. If sex is very troublesome, we throw ourselves the harder into helping others. We think of their needs and work for them. This takes us out of ourselves. It quiets the imperious urge, when to yield would mean heartache."

Great find!!! (The Podcast)

I listened to it just now...all great ideas put forth, now the funny thing is I -knew- all this stuff coming into this last relationship, and I could communicate these ideas to my sponsees, but when I tried to communicate them to my GF I was -shoulding- as in -this is how this is done- but in many cases I couldn't explain why, but when I tried to explain these Ideas I came across as "this is what -you- need to do" as opposed to some of the ideas they propose, "would you be interested in trying this for these goals?"

Kind of like I -know- when we do our fourth step we are supposed to do it in a column form, as in list all the names first, then come back and list the resentments, then come back and list the "affects my" but if someone were to ask me why, the best answer I could give would be, "because that's the way it's done" and if I start to feel pushed "Because I said so", now that might work with a sponsee but I'm here to tell you that dawg don't hunt in a relationship, but read Joe McQ's book, and he explains why, and it totally makes sense, this podcast is like that.

I think I am going to ask my GF if she would listen to this with me with either of us stopping and introducing, like "would you be interested in trying this?"

Freya, I am maybe a few years down the exact same road you are on, with some break ups and reconciliations behind us with both of us working on this thing and I have learned two things recently

One: Don't put old stories on present actions

If something seems to be happening that seems like "old behavior" don't attach the same old story to it, because that just leads down the same old tired road

ex: I had told my girl I was REALLY looking forward to spending a 3 day weekend with her since I work weekends and she works weekdays, and she lives with her daughter, and her daughter was going to be out of town for the weekend as well, so we had 3 days with neither of us working, I google mapped some bike rides, went out and bought all the stuff for her favorite breakfast, looked up some local events like the state fair, cleaned my house, like was REALLY looking forward to spending this time with her and wanted to make it special....

and it never really happened, her parents invited themselves over or she invited them, doesn't matter, for Monday, so that left Friday night, sat, and sunday, well Friday she had to go to a high school graduation of a friend of her daughters, that's OK, we still have Saturday and Sunday, well Saturday the weather was bad and she ate something that didn't agree with her so she spent the day in bed, saturday early evening she asked for a rain check and we would check in tomorrow, so I was like OK, Sunday rolls around and she STILL doesn't feel well, she's dragging butt around the house, and just trying to clean up a little and she's dizzy and has to go back to bed, like she REALLY doesn't feel well and although she is supposed to cook for her parents when they come over, she decides they will either have to settle for Pizza or a trip to their favorite restaurant...Monday comes, she entertains her parents and calls me when they leave, and practically falls asleep halfway through our phone call, I gotta go to sleep she says....she is KNOCKED out...

So we are talking IDK...last night or something and we're about to hang up and she says in this LITTLE bitty voice, "I sure Love You"...what?? why?? what??? well of course, I love you too hon...

She says "I knew you were really looking forward to this weekend together, and I am REALLY sorry it didn't happen, but I was terrified all day that you were going to get mad at me and you didn't"

OK...BIG hug...kittens...little hearts...warm fuzzies....

So what -we- did different, I didn't take things personally as they unfolded, it didn't work out, I was like, "OK, no Biggy" and just did my own thing

She communicated her fear to me, her being vulnerable with me is HUGE, this is like MASSIVE BREAKTHROUGH and it's becoming the norm, she says "sorry" now, she communicates her feelings now, she's learned how to say "I am frightened", and I learned not to "should" her and not to make everything about me, so we had what could have been an ugly thing not even appear as a blip on the radar, actually had some warm fuzzies about it....

What to do with all this breakfast stuff I have is my biggest problem now....

Two: Take the past in Bite sized Pieces, don't "sandbag" (bring up the past toooo much)

When we encounter and navigate a situation like this weekend, where we do it differently then we have in the past, often times it brings up the past where we did it differently and suffered negative consequences, so now I ...how do I put this, I will bring up the past only to show how differently it was this time, maybe make an amends about my behavior, and I make sure to not say "well you did this, and that's why it all went wrong" haha but how to explain, I just -brush- over the past, in the past we did this and got this result, I am very proud of you for doing X, Y and Z differently, I take responsibility for A, B and C for the old stuff then move on, don't try to analyze it too too much, because on path lies a black eye and a night in the dog house for our hero, just acknowledgement of present changes (hers), of past misdeeds (my own), expression of a desire to change and positive reinforcement for her actions because it's what I want to see more of...

They brush on this, what is my motive for this, and what do I expect to accomplish?

Me -shoulding- her, no matter how I dress it up comes across as "I am right and you are wrong, and you are doing this wrong" as opposed to "lets try this" or "are you open to trying this for this result" puts us on the same team, because ultimately we all want the same thing, greater intimacy, greater friendship, feeling safe etc etc, and face it, all that leads to great sex too, as in "making love" where that is what we are "making" is love

Who doesn't want that?